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Vol. 711<br />
No. 91<br />
Wednesday<br />
17 June 2009<br />
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES<br />
(HANSARD)<br />
HOUSE OF LORDS<br />
OFFICIAL REPORT<br />
ORDER OF BUSINESS<br />
Questions<br />
Police: Funding<br />
Sri Lanka<br />
Banks: Lending<br />
Prisoners: Voting<br />
Policing and Crime Bill<br />
Order <strong>of</strong> Consideration Motion<br />
Bank <strong>of</strong> England (Amendment) Bill [HL]<br />
Third Reading<br />
Saving Gateway Accounts Bill<br />
Third Reading<br />
Political Parties and Elections Bill<br />
Report (2nd Day)<br />
Organophosphates<br />
Question for Short Debate<br />
Political Parties and Elections Bill<br />
Report (2nd Day) (Continued)<br />
Grand Committee<br />
Companies Act 2006 (Part 35) (Consequential Amendments, Transitional Provisions and<br />
Savings) Order 2009<br />
Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies and Applications for Striking Off Regulations 2009<br />
Overseas Companies Regulations 2009<br />
Limited Liability Partnerships (Application <strong>of</strong> Companies Act 2006) Regulations 2009<br />
Companies Act 2006 (Accounts, Reports and Audit) Regulations 2009<br />
Debated<br />
Written Statements<br />
Written Answers<br />
For column numbers see back page<br />
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1057 Police: Funding<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Police: Funding<br />
1058<br />
3pm<br />
House <strong>of</strong> Lords<br />
Wednesday, 17 June 2009.<br />
Prayers—read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the<br />
Lord Bishop <strong>of</strong> Bradford.<br />
Police: Funding<br />
Question<br />
Asked By Lord Trefgarne<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals<br />
they have for funding Surrey police force this year<br />
and next year.<br />
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the<br />
Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. At<br />
the same time perhaps I may declare an interest in that<br />
I happen to be resident in the county in question.<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, the Government have provided<br />
general grant funding <strong>of</strong> £101.8 million for 2009-10,<br />
and provisionally £104.4 million for 2010-11. This<br />
represents years two and three <strong>of</strong> the three-year settlement,<br />
providing a background <strong>of</strong> stability and continuity<br />
against which the police and all stakeholders can plan<br />
with much greater certainty and confidence. In addition<br />
to general grant, Surrey will receive approximately<br />
£15.4 million from specific grants and capital provision<br />
for 2009-10.<br />
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I am grateful to the<br />
noble Lord for that reply. Is he aware that funding for<br />
the Surrey police force has, uniquely in the <strong>United</strong><br />
<strong>Kingdom</strong>, been capped by Her Majesty’s Government<br />
at what is in fact below the level <strong>of</strong> last year; that<br />
Surrey faces some unique security threats, and that<br />
this capping sits ill with the threats to which I have<br />
referred?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, I think that there may a<br />
slight overuse <strong>of</strong> the word “unique” by the noble<br />
Lord. In the first context it is not used correctly,<br />
because last year Lincolnshire found itself in the same<br />
situation, so Surrey is not unique. I suspect that the<br />
noble Lord’s second use <strong>of</strong> the word is not accurate<br />
either. While there are problems with Surrey—the<br />
great M25 motorway goes through it—there are also<br />
great motorways in the north <strong>of</strong> England, the west <strong>of</strong><br />
England, and many other areas. The arguments about<br />
this can be seen by noble Lords if they take the time to<br />
read the proceedings <strong>of</strong> the 90-minute debate held in<br />
another place two days ago. They will see that the very<br />
adequate response given by the Minister in the other<br />
place answers the points raised by the noble Lord.<br />
Lord Imbert: My Lords, is it sensible or fair that<br />
although Surrey has been adjudged by the Audit<br />
Commission to give excellent value for money—the<br />
commission commented that Surrey police authority<br />
has a very low level <strong>of</strong> central government grant—it<br />
has the lowest proportion <strong>of</strong> band D properties in the<br />
whole <strong>of</strong> England and Wales? Is it sensible that the<br />
Government are now forcing the Surrey police authority<br />
in addition to the 144 front-line personnel who have<br />
already been cancelled out this year to scrub around<br />
another 50 front-line <strong>of</strong>ficers? Is that fair to the public<br />
<strong>of</strong> Surrey?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, it is not the Government<br />
who are scrubbing anything. If the word “unique” is<br />
to be used, it is that Surrey uniquely is a police<br />
authority that twice in two years has gone beyond the<br />
cap, knowing in advance what was likely to happen<br />
this year. It is now the case, <strong>of</strong> course, that there are no<br />
central targets. Each police authority must manage its<br />
own affairs within the money raised locally and provided<br />
centrally. In that sense, Surrey is in the same situation<br />
as any other county. It has an excellent police force, as<br />
the noble Lord rightly said, but there again the number<br />
one police force happens to be that for the county <strong>of</strong><br />
my birth, which is Lancashire.<br />
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, will the Minister<br />
acknowledge that the police authorities all around<br />
London, not only Surrey, suffer huge losses <strong>of</strong> experienced<br />
people to the Met because it pays more money and has<br />
a better pension scheme based on the final year’s<br />
salary? Will he make sure that the Government once<br />
again look at the funding <strong>of</strong> authorities around the<br />
periphery <strong>of</strong> London and do something about the<br />
quite unjust boundary between the police forces?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, as the noble Lord knows,<br />
funding is a matter <strong>of</strong> continuing review. While it is<br />
true, perhaps, that Surrey would raise the argument<br />
that it loses police <strong>of</strong>ficers to the Met—the so-called<br />
doughnut effect—that also applies to other counties<br />
that border on the Metropolitan Police area. All those<br />
other areas have met their requirements within their<br />
budget.<br />
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, does my noble friend<br />
agree that there is a paradox in noble Lords opposite<br />
frequently asking for more and more decentralisation<br />
<strong>of</strong> responsibility and, when they get it, they do not like<br />
the consequences <strong>of</strong> their own decisions?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, my noble friend makes an<br />
accurate comment. It is, <strong>of</strong> course, a question <strong>of</strong><br />
human nature.<br />
Lord Howe <strong>of</strong> Aberavon: My Lords, is the noble<br />
Lord aware that the amount per head proceeding from<br />
the Government in the present year at some £93 is well<br />
below the average for police authorities as a whole <strong>of</strong><br />
£132, and that the Surrey figure has been reduced by<br />
39 per cent in real terms over the past 10 years? Will he<br />
take account <strong>of</strong> my own experience when I was Chancellor<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Exchequer and the Member <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> for<br />
East Surrey and found it possible to be generous, as he<br />
ought to be in the present circumstances?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, we can spar about percentages<br />
and amounts <strong>of</strong> money across the Chamber without<br />
necessarily getting to the root <strong>of</strong> the problem, which is<br />
that the Surrey Police Authority and all other police<br />
authorities have a responsibility both to raise money<br />
from council tax payers, which we want to ensure does<br />
not exceed a certain amount, and to do an excellent
1059 Police: Funding<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Sri Lanka<br />
1060<br />
[LORD BRETT]<br />
job <strong>of</strong> policing their own areas. I do not quarrel with<br />
the first point. However, in the last year before capping,<br />
the band E council tax increase in England was 12.9 per<br />
cent—which is why capping became a necessity—but<br />
in Surrey it was 40 per cent.<br />
Baroness Hanham: My Lords—<br />
Lord Desai: My Lords—<br />
The Minister <strong>of</strong> State, Department <strong>of</strong> Energy and<br />
Climate Change (Lord Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath): My<br />
Lords, if we are quick, we can hear the noble Baroness<br />
first and then my noble friend.<br />
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, is the Minister satisfied<br />
that the reductions in the police force—there are<br />
reductions—as a result <strong>of</strong> the budget cuts will not give<br />
credence to the Home Office’s own predictions on the<br />
effect <strong>of</strong> the recession <strong>of</strong> a rise in theft and burglary<br />
<strong>of</strong>fences, racist attacks and terrorism? What assurance<br />
can the Minister give the House that the police forces<br />
will remain with adequate manpower to deal with<br />
that?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, the responsibility that the<br />
noble Baroness charges me with is, <strong>of</strong> course, a charge<br />
on the local police authorities. They have resources—<br />
indeed, Surrey has £5.8 million in unallocated reserves—<br />
which they can use in whatever way they want. This<br />
carries with it a responsibility to act in accordance<br />
with the wishes not only <strong>of</strong> the council tax payers <strong>of</strong><br />
Surrey but <strong>of</strong> taxpayers at large. In that sense, the<br />
assurance the noble Baroness seeks is found in the<br />
activities <strong>of</strong> every other police authority that is living<br />
within its budget.<br />
Lord Desai: My Lords, is it not likely that capping<br />
will lead to beheading if there is a 10 per cent cut<br />
across the board—and especially in the Home Office<br />
budget—if we have the misfortune <strong>of</strong> the party opposite<br />
coming to power?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, far be it from me to intrude<br />
on private grief, but I am sure that the sponsor <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Question will bleat even more loudly in his annual<br />
Question next year or the year after if we get to the<br />
stage <strong>of</strong> having a Conservative Government and they<br />
do as they say and take £930 million out <strong>of</strong> the Home<br />
Office. Cutting police funding by the same 10 per cent<br />
as the rest <strong>of</strong> the Home Office could lose us 15,000<br />
police <strong>of</strong>ficers, exactly the number <strong>of</strong> extra police<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers delivered since this Government came to power<br />
in 1997. That means 30 <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong>f the beat in every<br />
constituency in England and 188 in Surrey.<br />
Sri Lanka<br />
Question<br />
3.09 pm<br />
Asked By Lord Naseby<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial<br />
help they will give to Sri Lanka in addition to<br />
contributions to international aid agencies to help<br />
with the resettlement <strong>of</strong> Tamils out <strong>of</strong> the displaced<br />
persons’ camps and into their former homes.<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, DfID recently announced an<br />
additional £5 million in humanitarian funding to Sri<br />
Lanka, bringing the total committed to £12.5 million.<br />
That money will help the Government <strong>of</strong> Sri Lanka to<br />
meet their pledge to return 80 per cent <strong>of</strong> the 280,000<br />
displaced population to their homes by the end <strong>of</strong> the<br />
year. All DfID humanitarian aid to Sri Lanka is<br />
provided directly to humanitarian agencies that are<br />
neutral and impartial in all contexts. The UK has no<br />
plans to provide funding to the Government <strong>of</strong> Sri<br />
Lanka.<br />
Lord Naseby: My Lords, I thank the Minister and<br />
the Government for that Answer with regard to the<br />
£12.5 million. It is extremely welcome and much needed.<br />
Is he aware that in the refugee camps there are four<br />
<strong>United</strong> Nations organisations and four international<br />
organisations that have free access, while 14 others<br />
have to work through the government agent? The<br />
greatest problem is resources. Is he aware that India<br />
has found 1 billion rupees, while Her Majesty’s<br />
Government have spent £650 million on infrastructure<br />
projects in Iraq? Will they perhaps consider diverting<br />
some <strong>of</strong> the aid budget to six infrastructure projects in<br />
Sri Lanka?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord’s<br />
comments and his appreciation <strong>of</strong> the Government’s<br />
endeavours. Some 50 per cent <strong>of</strong> the £12.5 million has<br />
been spent on international agencies and NGOs; I<br />
could spend the next minute regaling your Lordships<br />
with them, but I will not, on the basis <strong>of</strong> short answers<br />
to short questions, although I am happy to provide<br />
that information if he wants me to. About £6 million<br />
remains to be spent on the endeavours that the noble<br />
Lord mentioned and we keep under review the need<br />
for humanitarian aid. The question <strong>of</strong> diversion, though,<br />
is not an issue.<br />
Lord Desai: My Lords, are Her Majesty’s Government<br />
making any effort to consult the diaspora Sri Lankan<br />
groups here to try to form a Sinhala-speaking and<br />
Tamil-speaking people’s reconciliation group? That<br />
could help with reconciliation back home in Sri Lanka.<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, my noble friend makes an<br />
interesting point. It is and has been the Government’s<br />
view that there is no military solution to the problems<br />
in Sri Lanka. Thankfully, we have a ceasefire in hostilities<br />
and we now need to build on a political solution using<br />
humanitarian aid not only from the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong><br />
but, as has been said, from India and other quarters,<br />
and to try to rebuild a community that understands<br />
the problems that it has been through and how to<br />
avoid them in the future.<br />
Lord Avebury: My Lords, the Minister mentioned<br />
the commitment that the Secretary-General received<br />
when he was in Sri Lanka that 80 per cent <strong>of</strong> the IDPs<br />
would be returned to their homes by the end <strong>of</strong> the<br />
year. How does he think that the many different<br />
agencies that are involved in Sri Lanka can be co-ordinated<br />
to ensure that the right balance exists between returning<br />
people to their homes and improving the appalling<br />
conditions in the camps? Does he think that the entitled<br />
donors have any role in securing the political settlement<br />
that he just mentioned?
1061 Sri Lanka<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Banks: Lending<br />
1062<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, the noble Lord raises important<br />
questions. Through our high commission in Colombo,<br />
we are taking the opportunity to co-ordinate our<br />
efforts with international bodies, first, to look at the<br />
humanitarian situation but, beyond that, to look at<br />
the development <strong>of</strong> that country, which will depend<br />
on the international financial institutions that are<br />
being asked to provide assistance. In the political<br />
sense, it has to be for Sri Lankans to come together<br />
with the will to sit down and find a political solution.<br />
If they do that, I am sure that they will find no lack <strong>of</strong><br />
international contributors to assist both the political<br />
and economic processes.<br />
Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, what contact have<br />
Her Majesty’s Government had with the Chinese<br />
Government regarding their support for the Sri Lankan<br />
Government on the Tamil question?<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness<br />
for her question. I confess that, while <strong>of</strong> course I have<br />
studied my voluminous brief for many hours, I could<br />
spend 10 minutes trying to find the answer without<br />
having a clue where to find it, because I do not think<br />
that it is there. We have an ongoing dialogue with the<br />
Chinese Government on many issues and this is one <strong>of</strong><br />
them. I will take her question on board and seek to<br />
provide an answer.<br />
Baroness Howarth <strong>of</strong> Breckland: My Lords, how<br />
will the aid be monitored in relation to those refugees<br />
who will be taken out <strong>of</strong> the camps and repatriated? I<br />
ask this particularly knowing that many women and<br />
children in those camps have been both physically and<br />
sexually abused and will need very careful therapeutic<br />
and tending help, as well as all the practical help that<br />
they need. There is a worry about how that will be<br />
monitored through the system.<br />
Lord Brett: My Lords, the first responsibility for<br />
that will, <strong>of</strong> course, fall to the Government <strong>of</strong> Sri<br />
Lanka, but the noble Baroness is absolutely right in<br />
saying that it is important to ensure that it is provided.<br />
The presence <strong>of</strong> the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong> and such<br />
international non-governmental organisations as the<br />
International Red Cross will assist in that. I am sure<br />
that the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong> Government will do everything<br />
that they can to ensure that such monitoring takes<br />
place.<br />
Banks: Lending<br />
Question<br />
3.15 pm<br />
Asked By Lord Barnett<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further<br />
discussions they have had with banks regarding<br />
their lending to businesses and <strong>house</strong> buyers.<br />
The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury<br />
(Lord Myners): My Lords, at the 2008 Pre-Budget<br />
Report the Government announced the creation <strong>of</strong> a<br />
new lending panel which meets regularly to monitor<br />
lending to businesses and <strong>house</strong>holds. The lending<br />
panel is supported by the home finance forum, the<br />
consumer finance forum and the small business finance<br />
forum, which consider mortgage lending, consumer<br />
credit and lending to businesses. In addition to these<br />
meetings, Ministers and <strong>of</strong>ficials meet a wide range <strong>of</strong><br />
stakeholders, including financial institutions, to discuss<br />
matters relating to the economy, including lending.<br />
Lord Barnett: My Lords, I thank my noble friend<br />
for that Answer. Does he agree with what the Deputy<br />
Governor <strong>of</strong> the Bank <strong>of</strong> England said last week? It is<br />
worth quoting. He said that unless banks increase<br />
their lending,<br />
“recovery might end up being anaemic, at best”.<br />
Also last week, the Prime Minister said that the banks<br />
have agreed to lend an additional £70 billion above<br />
what they had lent the previous year. But those are<br />
promises. In practice, there is ample evidence that the<br />
banks are still not lending as they should. I am sure<br />
that my noble friend is aware that in the case even <strong>of</strong><br />
small business loan guarantee schemes, matching funds<br />
are required. In housing, where the banks previously<br />
lent 125 per cent, they are now—when prices are<br />
lower—demanding at least 40 per cent. Is the panel<br />
doing anything about that? After all, at the moment,<br />
all that we have are promises. What action do the<br />
Government or the lending panel agree to take in the<br />
event <strong>of</strong> the promises not being kept?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, I agree with Mr Paul<br />
Tucker’s comments. It is essential that the availability<br />
<strong>of</strong> credit is increased to support lending and economic<br />
activity, and that indeed is happening. It is happening<br />
particularly for larger companies, which are being<br />
supported by the capital markets through equity raising<br />
and bonds, but also for smaller businesses. The<br />
Government have done a considerable amount in this<br />
respect to encourage the process. The lending agreements<br />
that we have with Lloyds bank and Royal Bank <strong>of</strong><br />
Scotland commit those institutions to lending an extra<br />
£14 billion and £25 billion this year. HSBC has committed<br />
to lend an extra £15 billion, Barclays an extra £11 billion<br />
and Northern Rock up to an extra £5 billion. These<br />
agreements with those banks that have entered into<br />
the extended credit guarantee scheme and the asset<br />
protection scheme are legally enforceable. They are<br />
monitored on a monthly basis and I regularly meet the<br />
chief executives <strong>of</strong> banks. The week before last I met<br />
the chief executive <strong>of</strong> HSBC; last week I met the<br />
Abbey National and this week the Co-operative and<br />
Nationwide.<br />
Lord Forsyth <strong>of</strong> Drumlean: My Lords, does the<br />
Minister not recognise that the Government’s own<br />
plans to raise some £900 billion in the gilt markets will<br />
inevitably force up interest rates, adding to the burdens<br />
on those businesses that are able to obtain loans, and<br />
therefore reduce the speed <strong>of</strong> recovery?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, I am afraid that the noble<br />
Lord misdirects himself. If he looks at the evidence, he<br />
will see it suggests that there is considerable confidence<br />
in the gilt-edged market. I now have direct responsibility<br />
within the Treasury for the Debt Management Office,<br />
a very pr<strong>of</strong>essional unit that continues to fund our<br />
needs and requirements in an entirely practical way<br />
which is not damaging to interest rates. Therefore, we<br />
are not squeezing out the availability <strong>of</strong> funds to<br />
business and to private sector borrowers.
1063 Banks: Lending<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Banks: Lending<br />
1064<br />
Lord Newby: My Lords, the Minister paints a pretty<br />
rosy picture <strong>of</strong> the increased levels <strong>of</strong> lending by the<br />
banks. Is he aware that in many cases the banks<br />
require from existing small business customers much<br />
higher levels <strong>of</strong> security and higher fees which, given<br />
the economic situation, those small businesses are<br />
unable to find? These businesses are therefore not able<br />
to roll over their loans. Will the Minister speak to the<br />
banks, particularly those in public ownership, and ask<br />
them to address those problems as well as the global<br />
quantum to which they are committed to lend?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, as I indicated to my noble<br />
friend, I have regular meetings with the chairmen and<br />
chief executives <strong>of</strong> our major banks, and <strong>of</strong> course I<br />
discuss this issue. The total cost <strong>of</strong> borrowing to<br />
businesses has been drawn down as a consequence<br />
<strong>of</strong> much lower interest rates and the positive effects<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Bank <strong>of</strong> England’s quantitative easing<br />
programme. However, we have seen a widening <strong>of</strong><br />
margins and increasingly demanding terms around<br />
collateral and covenants which significantly reflect the<br />
fact that banks are being more prudent now and<br />
moving away from the somewhat reckless terms they<br />
<strong>of</strong>fered prior to the crisis. The noble Lord, Lord<br />
Newby, cannot have it both ways. We want bankers<br />
who are not only sensible and prudent but who recognise<br />
that they need to support their customers. I and the<br />
Government are absolutely committed to ensuring<br />
that that happens so that this economy can recover as<br />
quickly as possible.<br />
Lord Brooke <strong>of</strong> Alverthorpe: My Lords, my noble<br />
friend did not mention—<br />
Lord Tebbit: My Lords—<br />
The Minister <strong>of</strong> State, Department <strong>of</strong> Energy and<br />
Climate Change (Lord Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath): My<br />
Lords, I think that we should hear from this side.<br />
Lord Brooke <strong>of</strong> Alverthorpe: My Lords, my noble<br />
friend did not mention a meeting with Northern Rock.<br />
Newspaper <strong>report</strong>s indicate that it is likely that Northern<br />
Rock will be sold. Would it not be beneficial if he had<br />
a meeting with Northern Rock and they talked about<br />
perhaps using it as the experimental base to try to<br />
advance lending both to people seeking to purchase a<br />
home and also to businesses as well?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, I met with the chief executive<br />
<strong>of</strong> Northern Rock last week.<br />
Lord Lang <strong>of</strong> Monkton: My Lords, what evidence is<br />
there that the policy <strong>of</strong> quantitative easing is actually<br />
helping to ease banks’ lending, or is it the case, as is<br />
widely suggested, that much <strong>of</strong> the cash is going to<br />
overseas banks, and much <strong>of</strong> the rest <strong>of</strong> it is going to<br />
our own banks for the understandable purpose <strong>of</strong><br />
reinforcing their own balance sheets?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, the impact <strong>of</strong> quantitative<br />
easing—a policy which is being followed by central<br />
banks in other countries, including the <strong>United</strong> States<br />
<strong>of</strong> America—is very evident in the lower interest rates<br />
now being charged on new medium and longer-term<br />
fixed interest rate debt. So it is having a very beneficial<br />
impact on the flow <strong>of</strong> credit. Whether the gilts and<br />
bonds that are acquired under quantitative easing are<br />
acquired from domestic owners or foreign owners<br />
matters little because if it is a foreign owner the funds<br />
have to be repatriated into sterling and are available to<br />
provide reserves to the banking system and support<br />
lending activity.<br />
The Countess <strong>of</strong> Mar: My Lords, we have heard an<br />
awful lot about lending and borrowing but not very<br />
much about repaying. It strikes me that we have a<br />
whole generation who have got used to the idea that<br />
they can borrow money willy-nilly but they do not<br />
have to repay it, and this is why we have got into such<br />
financial trouble. Is it not time that we changed the<br />
culture and made people realise that you borrow money<br />
and then you repay it?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, I could not agree more<br />
with the noble Countess. That is at the heart <strong>of</strong> good<br />
lending and good borrowing activity and it is a culture<br />
that we want to see restored to our banks—to see<br />
those banks in the hands <strong>of</strong> competent, prudent<br />
individuals, rather than the reckless and feckless behaviour<br />
that we have seen from some <strong>of</strong> our bankers in recent<br />
years.<br />
Baroness Noakes: My Lords, the Government launched<br />
the enterprise finance guarantee scheme with a great<br />
fanfare in January and told us that it was worth<br />
£1.3 billion. But this week in another place the<br />
Government said that the loans <strong>of</strong>fered under the<br />
scheme totalled only £230 million and we do not know<br />
how much has actually been taken up. Does this mean<br />
that small firms do not need the finance, or is this<br />
another government scheme that has proved to be<br />
ineffective?<br />
Lord Myners: My Lords, at the heart <strong>of</strong> the noble<br />
Baroness’s question there is a very interesting point<br />
about whether, when studying credit creation and<br />
extension, we are looking at issues <strong>of</strong> inadequate<br />
supply or decreased demand. I think that the reduction<br />
in demand for credit is consistent with lower economic<br />
activity—that is what I would expect from my business<br />
background—as businesses harbour their cash resources<br />
more carefully, cut back on investment and hold less<br />
stock in ratio to sales. So I think that there is a demand<br />
feature at work. The noble Baroness, Lady Newby,<br />
also asks about the EFG scheme.<br />
Noble Lords: Oh!<br />
Lord Myners: I am sorry, my Lords—the noble<br />
Baroness, Lady Noakes. I do apologise. I’ll get back to<br />
reading my brief. I do not normally use my notes but<br />
on this occasion I think that it is probably right to. The<br />
EFG scheme has already extended £445 million to<br />
eligible applications from over 4,000 firms that have<br />
been granted or are being processed and assessed;<br />
2,855 businesses have been <strong>of</strong>fered loans totalling<br />
£271 million. That is real help now for British business<br />
to help us get out <strong>of</strong> this economic crisis that is<br />
affecting the globe.
1065 Banks: Lending<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Prisoners: Voting<br />
1066<br />
Prisoners: Voting<br />
Question<br />
3.25 pm<br />
Asked By Lord Ramsbotham<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether,<br />
following the remarks <strong>of</strong> the Committee <strong>of</strong> Ministers<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Council <strong>of</strong> Europe on 12 June, they will take<br />
steps to allow prisoners to vote.<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Ministry<br />
<strong>of</strong> Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Government<br />
have noted the remarks <strong>of</strong> the Committee <strong>of</strong> Ministers<br />
and remain committed to a two-stage consultation<br />
process on this issue. The Government launched their<br />
second consultation paper in April, outlining their<br />
proposals for how the judgment in Hirst (No. 2) might<br />
be implemented. The consultation closes 29 September<br />
2009, after which date the Government will consider<br />
the next steps towards implementing the judgment in<br />
legislation.<br />
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank the Minister<br />
for that reply, which is very much what I expected. Is<br />
he aware that it is now two years and three months<br />
longer than the entire duration <strong>of</strong> World War II since<br />
this issue was raised in the High Court? In view <strong>of</strong> that<br />
time, it is hardly surprising that on Friday the Committee<br />
<strong>of</strong> Ministers in the Council <strong>of</strong> Europe expressed concern<br />
at the significant delay in implementing the judgment<br />
<strong>of</strong> the European Court; condemned the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>’s<br />
delay in organising voting for prisoners; warned that<br />
there was now a pressing need for action to be taken;<br />
and called on the Government <strong>of</strong> the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong><br />
swiftly to set in measures that prisoners would be able<br />
to vote in the general election predicted for the next<br />
spring. In view <strong>of</strong> that, my question to Her Majesty’s<br />
Government is simple: do they have any intention <strong>of</strong><br />
speeding up the process to ensure that those prisoners<br />
whose crimes are not such as to warrant removal <strong>of</strong><br />
the right to vote as part <strong>of</strong> their sentence may be able<br />
to vote in the next general election?<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, the Government believe that<br />
the issues around prisoner voting remain complex and<br />
require full consultation and consideration. The practical<br />
issues—and there are some—need to be thought through<br />
and decisions taken on what criteria should apply in<br />
order to make a fair decision on whether a prisoner<br />
should be able to vote. We are currently consulting on<br />
the enfranchisement <strong>of</strong> prisoners. We have set out in<br />
the consultation paper a number <strong>of</strong> questions on the<br />
practical aspects <strong>of</strong> implementation and a range <strong>of</strong><br />
options for prisoners’ enfranchisement based on sentence<br />
length. As I have said, when the second consultation is<br />
concluded, we will consider the next steps towards<br />
implementing the judgment in legislation.<br />
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, can the Minister say why<br />
prisoners should be allowed to vote?<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, there is a ruling <strong>of</strong> the<br />
European Court <strong>of</strong> Human Rights on this issue, and<br />
as signatories—this would apply whichever Government<br />
were in power—we are obliged to follow that ruling.<br />
Lord Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill: My Lords—<br />
Viscount Montgomery <strong>of</strong> Alamein: My Lords—<br />
The Minister <strong>of</strong> State, Department <strong>of</strong> Energy and<br />
Climate Change (Lord Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath): My<br />
Lords, shall we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Lester,<br />
first?<br />
Lord Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill: My Lords, the Government<br />
have a very good reputation, <strong>of</strong> which they should be<br />
proud, in abiding by judgments <strong>of</strong> the European Court<br />
<strong>of</strong> Human Rights. This, unfortunately, is a gross exception,<br />
which creates a bad example to the rest <strong>of</strong> Europe.<br />
Could the Minister expand on the answer he gave on<br />
20 April to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, when<br />
he said that there were serious practical difficulties to<br />
the prison authorities and courts? What I do not<br />
understand—perhaps he can help the House—is why<br />
Ireland and Cyprus gave postal voting, and South<br />
Africa and Canada managed to do the same. Why<br />
cannot the Government introduce a remedial order,<br />
and get the judgment complied with, as the Committee<br />
<strong>of</strong> Ministers are asking should happen by Christmas?<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, consultation ends on<br />
29 September and we then have to look at the way<br />
forward. Although <strong>of</strong> course the noble Lord is right<br />
that a remedial order would technically be available by<br />
virtue <strong>of</strong> the decision made by the European Court <strong>of</strong><br />
Human Rights, any legislation would clearly have to<br />
deal with a number <strong>of</strong> complex issues. Those are issues<br />
<strong>of</strong> principle such as where the line should be drawn on<br />
partial prisoner enfranchisement, what length <strong>of</strong> sentence<br />
should serve as the cut-<strong>of</strong>f point—I mentioned that<br />
earlier—and how to treat classes <strong>of</strong> prisoner not subject<br />
to ordinary periods <strong>of</strong> detention. This is a matter in<br />
which the public have considerable interest anyway.<br />
Primary legislation, which <strong>Parliament</strong> will have proper<br />
time to consider, debate and amend, is much the most<br />
appropriate vehicle for this issue.<br />
Lord Grocott: My Lords—<br />
Viscount Montgomery <strong>of</strong> Alamein: My Lords—<br />
Noble Lords: Cross Bench!<br />
Lord Grocott: I think that we have had one Cross-<br />
Bencher, have we not, my Lords?<br />
I agree very much with my noble friend’s observations.<br />
While we are on the subject <strong>of</strong> Europe and voting,<br />
would he like to comment on the deplorably low<br />
turnout in the recent European elections, based as<br />
they were on the system <strong>of</strong> proportional representation?<br />
Given that people in prison, as well as the rest <strong>of</strong> the<br />
population, have very little understanding <strong>of</strong> how the<br />
d’Hondt system works, I imagine—a lack <strong>of</strong><br />
understanding which I admit I share—will my noble<br />
friend give a brief explanation <strong>of</strong> it?<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, last time we debated these<br />
interesting issues, my noble friend asked me pretty<br />
much the same question. I was not expecting him to<br />
intervene again in quite the same way. I had better say<br />
what I said last time, with great trepidation, he being<br />
my former Chief Whip: I think that what he asks is a<br />
little wide <strong>of</strong> the mark.
1067 Policing and Crime Bill<br />
[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1068<br />
Policing and Crime Bill<br />
Order <strong>of</strong> Consideration Motion<br />
3.31 pm<br />
Moved By Lord Brett<br />
That it be an instruction to the Committee <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Whole House to which the Policing and Crime Bill<br />
has been committed that they consider the Bill in<br />
the following order:<br />
Clauses 1 to 16, Schedule 1, Clauses 17 to 20,<br />
Schedule 2, Clauses 21 to 26, Schedule 3, Clauses<br />
27 to 32, Schedule 4, Clauses 33 to 45, Schedule 5,<br />
Clauses 46 to 78, Schedule 6, Clauses 79 to 112,<br />
Schedules 7 and 8, Clauses 113 to 117.<br />
Motion agreed.<br />
Bank <strong>of</strong> England (Amendment) Bill [HL]<br />
Third Reading<br />
3.32 pm<br />
Bill passed and sent to the Commons.<br />
3.32 pm<br />
Saving Gateway Accounts Bill<br />
Third Reading<br />
Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.<br />
3.33 pm<br />
Political Parties and Elections Bill<br />
Report (2nd Day)<br />
Amendment 38<br />
Moved by Lord Tyler<br />
38: After Clause 16, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“£50,000 cap on donations<br />
(1) In section 54 <strong>of</strong> the 2000 Act (permissible donors), after<br />
subsection (1) there is inserted—<br />
“(1A) A donation received by a registered party from a<br />
permissible donor must not be accepted by the party in so far as<br />
the amount <strong>of</strong> that donation and <strong>of</strong> any other donations accepted<br />
by the party from that donor during the same calendar year<br />
exceeds £50,000.<br />
(1B) Subsection (1A) does not apply to donations to which<br />
subsections (1) and (2) <strong>of</strong> section 55 apply, or to monies received<br />
from public funds.”<br />
(2) In section 56 <strong>of</strong> the 2000 Act (acceptance or return <strong>of</strong><br />
donations: general), after subsection (2) there is inserted—<br />
“(2A) If a registered party receives a donation which it is<br />
prohibited from accepting by virtue <strong>of</strong> section 54(1A), subsection<br />
(2) applies to that donation only in so far as the amount <strong>of</strong> that<br />
donation and <strong>of</strong> any other donations accepted by the party from<br />
that donor during the same calendar year exceeds £50,000.”<br />
(3) In section 58(1)(a) <strong>of</strong> the 2000 Act (forfeiture <strong>of</strong> donations<br />
made by impermissible or unidentifiable donors) after “(b)” there<br />
is inserted “or (1A)”.”<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, perhaps I should make clear<br />
the rationale <strong>of</strong> the grouping <strong>of</strong> this amendment with<br />
others. Amendment 38 deals with the possibility <strong>of</strong> an<br />
effective cap on donations in general. Amendment 39,<br />
also in my name and that <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord<br />
Rennard, deals with contributions from trade union<br />
funds. Then there are two extremely important<br />
amendments in the name <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord<br />
Goodhart—he enjoys the support <strong>of</strong> Members on all<br />
sides <strong>of</strong> the House—for tax relief on small donations.<br />
The rationale for the grouping is simply to make sure<br />
that we are able to shift responsibility for funding our<br />
politics from a small number <strong>of</strong> big donors—<br />
millionaires—and try to encourage many small<br />
contributions, with tax relief, for those who make<br />
modest donations. I know from our debate in Grand<br />
Committee that there is widespread anxiety to make<br />
this shift.<br />
The amendment precisely follows the recommendations<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Hayden Phillips discussions and agreement, to<br />
which I shall come back in a moment, but it is absolutely<br />
fundamental to all the proposals that have been endorsed<br />
by all parties and those from no party to try to take<br />
big money out <strong>of</strong> British politics. Wealthy individuals,<br />
organisations and companies should not be able to<br />
buy influence in the way that they have in recent years.<br />
The inequality <strong>of</strong> influence generated by massive<br />
donations runs entirely counter to the democratic<br />
principle and erodes public trust. All <strong>of</strong> us in your<br />
Lordships’ House and, indeed, Members <strong>of</strong> the other<br />
place must be very well aware <strong>of</strong> the decline in public<br />
trust in recent years.<br />
Since I come from something <strong>of</strong> an ecclesiastical<br />
family, I am accustomed to producing or listening to a<br />
text. Therefore, I have a few texts to use this afternoon<br />
to show the widespread support for the approach<br />
represented by these amendments. In the first place, I<br />
know that there is widespread support for a reduction<br />
in the amount <strong>of</strong> expenditure by the parties. For<br />
example, Mr Gordon Brown asked Mr David Cameron<br />
at Prime Minister’s Questions in December 2007 whether<br />
he would,<br />
“support a national and local limit on expenditure”.—[Official<br />
Report, Commons, 5/12/07; col. 816.]<br />
We will come back to that point. At a policy forum in<br />
west London on 2 December 2007 Mr Brown said<br />
that,<br />
“the latest problems in party funding show why it is right not to<br />
delay, and it is now time to act … we have learned just how easily<br />
trust in our politics can be eroded … we must now complete the<br />
work <strong>of</strong> change”.<br />
Then the right honourable Francis Maude, speaking<br />
on behalf <strong>of</strong> the Conservatives in the other place, said<br />
in an opposition-day debate instigated by the Conservative<br />
Party on 4 December 2007:<br />
“We have consistently argued for comprehensive reform that<br />
would deal finally with the perception that large donors have<br />
undue influence on political parties … Dealing with that perception<br />
requires, above all, a cap on donations”.—[Official Report, Commons,<br />
4/12/07; col. 704.]<br />
Everyone now agrees that a cap <strong>of</strong> £50,000 would<br />
accomplish that. Finally, now that the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Bates, is in his place, I should say that he was in
1069 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1070<br />
very good company, not only in his party but in other<br />
parties, when he said in the debate on Monday in your<br />
Lordships’ House:<br />
“We on this side <strong>of</strong> the House look forward to the day when<br />
big money is genuinely taken out <strong>of</strong> politics”.—[Official Report,<br />
15/6/09; col. 913.]<br />
The noble Lord, with his voice and his vote this<br />
afternoon, can start that process. The day he looks<br />
forward to could indeed be today.<br />
It is extremely important that we build on the work<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Hayden Phillips discussions. All parties took a<br />
very active role over a long period under his distinguished<br />
chairmanship. It was quite clear from his work, which<br />
he set out in great detail in his publication <strong>of</strong> the draft<br />
proposals, that he very strongly supported views that<br />
had been previously expressed by the Constitutional<br />
Affairs Select Committee in the other place in 2006.<br />
However, in Grand Committee I am sad to say that the<br />
Minister did not seem to be totally persuaded either<br />
by the Hayden Phillips discussions or by the Constitutional<br />
Affairs Select Committee because, the Minister said,<br />
he felt that a cap on donations would so clearly result<br />
in a loss <strong>of</strong> income for the larger parties—I hope that I<br />
am paraphrasing reasonably well—that the issue <strong>of</strong><br />
state funding had to be reopened. That is not the case.<br />
First and foremost, there is excessive expenditure<br />
by some <strong>of</strong> the big parties at election time. I do not<br />
absolve even the Liberal Democrats <strong>of</strong> that; occasionally<br />
when they have had money they have used it. However,<br />
the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby, who has extensive<br />
experience <strong>of</strong> the advertising industry—I am delighted<br />
to see him in his place—pointed out to the Grand<br />
Committee that there is huge wastage, particularly on<br />
advertising, by the political parties. It does not follow<br />
that by restricting large donations to the political<br />
parties they would somehow be so inhibited from<br />
effective campaigning that they could not do their<br />
proper job. It is also why we emphasise the need to link<br />
these restrictions on the big donors with the very<br />
important initiative taken by my noble friend Lord<br />
Goodhart and others on other Benches to try to<br />
encourage smaller donations with tax relief.<br />
I emphasise that the experience in other countries—<br />
notably, what Barack Obama did in the <strong>United</strong> States—<br />
should encourage this approach in Britain. Barack<br />
Obama demonstrated that it was possible to raise very<br />
considerable sums <strong>of</strong> money in the height <strong>of</strong> the<br />
recession in the <strong>United</strong> States from individuals by way<br />
<strong>of</strong> the encouragement that was given in his campaign.<br />
Those who contributed then felt that they had a real<br />
connection with his campaign and a sense <strong>of</strong> ownership.<br />
It was not just a few individuals paying the bills; it was<br />
spread throughout the states. As a result, more than<br />
$750 million was raised. A record-breaking $150 million<br />
was raised in September at a time when the country<br />
was in recession. That is a very important example.<br />
I remind the House <strong>of</strong> the specific recommendations<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Hayden Phillips team, which were the result <strong>of</strong><br />
a cross-party agreement. They were:<br />
“A1 There shall be a cap on donations and loans to all<br />
political parties that reach the threshold specified at A2.<br />
A2 The cap shall apply to all parties registered in Great<br />
Britain with two or more elected representatives to <strong>Parliament</strong>,<br />
the Scottish <strong>Parliament</strong>, the National Assembly for Wales and the<br />
European <strong>Parliament</strong>. It shall apply to the party, its accounting<br />
units, and regulated donees.<br />
A3 The final level <strong>of</strong> the cap will be £50,000”.<br />
That was the specific proposal that the parties agreed<br />
to.<br />
I do not propose to go through all <strong>of</strong> the rationale<br />
that has been advanced for this restriction because it is<br />
well documented. I do not know <strong>of</strong> any serious argument<br />
against it. The Phillips team also relied on the work <strong>of</strong><br />
the Constitutional Affairs Committee in the other<br />
place. I briefly refer to its recommendation on page 55,<br />
paragraph 152, <strong>of</strong> its 2006 <strong>report</strong>:<br />
“The UK currently limits expenditure but does not limit<br />
donations, while in the U.S.A, donations are capped but spending<br />
is not. Both systems lead to significant problems. In Canada, both<br />
income and expenditure are comprehensively capped and regulated,<br />
and we were convinced by the strengths and benefits <strong>of</strong> this<br />
model”.<br />
Even in the past few days there has been very strong<br />
support among the public, demonstrated in public<br />
opinion polls, for restrictions on the huge sums <strong>of</strong><br />
money that are donated to the political parties and,<br />
indeed, on the way in which they spend them. In the<br />
Phillips proposals the following paragraph is very<br />
significant:<br />
“Few would now dissent from the proposition that there<br />
should be a limit on how much any one donor may contribute to a<br />
party each year. Of the parties consulted by my Review, just one –<br />
UKIP – does not favour this approach”.<br />
Everyone else supports this proposal. I hope that that<br />
will be evident from the speeches from other Benches<br />
this afternoon.<br />
I come now to the final point in the Phillips<br />
recommendations. The summary firmly said this:<br />
“I believe there is an emerging consensus that: the status quo,<br />
in which there are no caps on donations, is unsustainable and<br />
therefore donations to parties should be limited; and restrictions<br />
on donations should be buttressed by measures to prevent breaches<br />
<strong>of</strong> the new regulations”.<br />
I agree wholeheartedly with that. I hope your Lordships’<br />
House will as well.<br />
I turn briefly to Amendment 39, which concerns<br />
the treatment <strong>of</strong> contributions from trade union political<br />
funds. Here again, there was very considerable consensus<br />
and agreement in the Hayden Phillips talks. I draw<br />
attention to the first part <strong>of</strong> our amendment, which<br />
sets out very clearly the intention <strong>of</strong> our special treatment<br />
<strong>of</strong> the trade unions. It says:<br />
“The limit on donations established by”,<br />
the section referring to the £50,000 cap on donations,<br />
“shall apply to all expenditure out <strong>of</strong> trade union political funds<br />
unless—<br />
I repeat: unless—<br />
“all the conditions <strong>of</strong> this section have been fulfilled with regard<br />
to the expenditure in question”.<br />
There follow very careful safeguards to ensure that the<br />
democratic will <strong>of</strong> members <strong>of</strong> trade unions is fulfilled<br />
but that, in those terms, the trade union has every<br />
right effectively to act as a collecting agent for a<br />
political party, or indeed for several political parties.<br />
The proposals that the Hayden Phillips team looked<br />
at—again, I emphasise the cross-party agreement—were<br />
very carefully thought through so that they would not<br />
penalise a trade union for taking a sensible active role<br />
in British politics but would ensure that everything
1071 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1072<br />
[LORD TYLER]<br />
was as transparent and democratic as it could be.<br />
Again, I draw attention in the amendment to the final<br />
point made by the Hayden Phillips team:<br />
“Due to the increased transparency and choice for trade union<br />
members the ten-year review ballot on the existence <strong>of</strong> the<br />
political fund is no longer necessary and should be removed”.<br />
In other words, the quid pro quo, if I may put it like<br />
that, was that trade unions, by being more transparent<br />
and more careful in relation to their own members,<br />
and by giving them more transparency and democratic<br />
rights, would not have to suffer as much bureaucracy<br />
as they do at the moment.<br />
I hope that with that fairly brief canter around<br />
this issue—because it has been discussed at<br />
considerable length in the other place, in the<br />
Hayden Phillips discussions and in Grand Committee—<br />
noble Lords will recognise that there is a quid pro<br />
quo in this group. By restricting the millionaires and<br />
the very big donors to political parties but, under the<br />
terms <strong>of</strong> my noble friend’s amendments, with a tax<br />
concession for small donations, we have a deliberate<br />
switch from the big boys to the general public, and<br />
that must be in the best interests <strong>of</strong> British democracy.<br />
I beg to move.<br />
3.45 pm<br />
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, Amendments 64, 65 and<br />
66 would provide tax relief for small donations.<br />
Amendments 64 and 66 are in my name, and Amendment<br />
65, which is an amendment to Amendment 64, is in<br />
the name <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.<br />
These amendments have been grouped with<br />
Amendments 38 and 39, which, for reasons explained<br />
by my noble friend Lord Tyler, would impose a cap on<br />
large donations. However, these two sub-groups, if I<br />
may call them that, are not dependent on each other.<br />
Tax relief on small donations can be given whether or<br />
not there is a cap on large ones, and a cap on large<br />
donations can be imposed whether or not tax relief is<br />
given for small donations. However, there is an interaction<br />
between these two sub-groups because a cap on large<br />
donations is likely to reduce party funds and, if that<br />
happens, parties will have to do more fundraising from<br />
ordinary members and supporters, as in the outstanding<br />
example <strong>of</strong> the fundraising by President Barack Obama<br />
during his campaign last autumn. Tax relief on small<br />
donations will also help to achieve more fundraising<br />
from ordinary members.<br />
The idea <strong>of</strong> giving tax relief on small or moderate<br />
donations has had considerable support in the <strong>United</strong><br />
<strong>Kingdom</strong> and has been adopted in a number <strong>of</strong> foreign<br />
countries. Tax relief on modest donations was<br />
recommended by the Committee on Standards in Public<br />
Life, <strong>of</strong> which I was then a member, in its <strong>report</strong> on<br />
party-political funding published in 1998. In that <strong>report</strong>,<br />
the committee proposed an upper limit for tax relief <strong>of</strong><br />
£500. I have kept to that figure in this amendment, in<br />
spite <strong>of</strong> the time that has passed. I am glad to say that<br />
two other members <strong>of</strong> that committee are present: the<br />
noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, who was then a member<br />
and certainly, with me, was an active supporter <strong>of</strong> the<br />
proposal to allow tax relief, and the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Neill <strong>of</strong> Bladen, who was the chairman <strong>of</strong> the committee<br />
at that time.<br />
Giving tax relief on modest donations has many<br />
advantages. It is highly undesirable that all funds<br />
should come from the Government, as that greatly<br />
reduces the need to recruit members and discourages<br />
greater contact with voters. However, it is even worse if<br />
party funding comes mainly from a small number <strong>of</strong><br />
rich donors making large donations. That is a travesty<br />
<strong>of</strong> democracy and enables rich donors to have far too<br />
much control over party policy. It is important to<br />
encourage parties by giving tax relief for small or<br />
moderate donations, including membership subscriptions.<br />
We recognise that giving to charities should be encouraged<br />
by tax relief to donors. We believe that tax relief could<br />
be extended to donations to political parties, as those<br />
donations are also very much in the public interest and<br />
deserve tax relief.<br />
Tax relief has been given on inheritance tax in this<br />
context since the Inheritance Tax Act 1984—25 years<br />
ago—which exempted donations by will for the political<br />
parties that won at least two seats at the previous<br />
general election or one seat and at least 150,000 votes<br />
in total. Relief from inheritance tax should surely be<br />
extended to income tax. The obvious method would<br />
be to use a version <strong>of</strong> the Gift Aid system.<br />
I suggest, first, that the eligibility <strong>of</strong> a party to<br />
claim benefit <strong>of</strong> tax relief should be the same as that<br />
now for inheritance tax; that is, two seats at the last<br />
general election or one seat and at least 150,000 votes.<br />
Secondly, tax relief should be limited to the first £500<br />
<strong>of</strong> donations made in any one tax year by any one<br />
donor. Thirdly, whereas a charity donor can rightly<br />
reclaim a higher rate <strong>of</strong> tax relief on the amount <strong>of</strong><br />
Gift Aid donations, donors to political parties should<br />
not be able to do so, to avoid putting the relatively<br />
well-to-do donors in a better position. Fourthly, tax<br />
relief should be given only for gifts by individuals.<br />
All those conditions are set out in Amendment 64.<br />
They produce a simple and workable system, which in<br />
Grand Committee was supported by Members from<br />
all three parties. The Electoral Commission has said in<br />
its briefing for this Report stage:<br />
“In principle the Commission welcomes measures that incentivise<br />
public engagement in politics and help parties to campaign effectively.<br />
Proposals for fiscal incentives are for <strong>Parliament</strong> to consider in<br />
the light <strong>of</strong> other priorities”.<br />
The “other priorities” are the rub now. I recognise that<br />
we are in a difficult tax situation. I was asked in Grand<br />
Committee for an estimate <strong>of</strong> the amount <strong>of</strong> money<br />
that would need to be returned by the Government<br />
every year under the scheme. It is impossible to tell,<br />
but my guess put an upper limit at £5 million. Since<br />
the original version had cut <strong>of</strong>f at £1,000 rather than<br />
£500 and, more importantly perhaps, since recent<br />
events must have decreased the willingness <strong>of</strong> members<br />
<strong>of</strong> the public to contribute to political parties, the<br />
present prospective upper limit is probably something<br />
less than £4 million.<br />
I understand the problem, but if the Government<br />
are not willing to pay that small sum in the near<br />
future, I suggest two alternatives. The first would be to<br />
accept Amendments 64 and 66 but to withhold the<br />
commencement order for that new clause and schedule<br />
until the financial situation makes this easier. The<br />
other would be to accept Amendment 65 from the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, which is an
1073 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1074<br />
amendment to my Amendment 64 and would reduce<br />
the cut-<strong>of</strong>f point from £500 to £15 a year. I do not in<br />
principle welcome Amendment 65, because it would<br />
produce too little money, but if the Government were<br />
prepared to accept it, but not to accept the unamended<br />
format <strong>of</strong> my Amendment 64, I would say that a<br />
quarter <strong>of</strong> a loaf is better than no bread. In those<br />
circumstances, although not in others, I would accept<br />
the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Campbell-Savours.<br />
Amendments 64 and 66 provide a simple system for<br />
the waiver <strong>of</strong> taxation on modest donations by individuals<br />
to recognise political parties. That is a good thing in its<br />
own right, and even more so if supplies <strong>of</strong> money to<br />
political parties are cut back by the capping <strong>of</strong> large<br />
donations. I invite your Lordships’ House to support<br />
Amendments 64 and 66.<br />
Lord Neill <strong>of</strong> Bladen: My Lords, I speak in support<br />
<strong>of</strong> Amendment 64. As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart,<br />
pointed out, I was chairman <strong>of</strong> the committee that<br />
recommended to <strong>Parliament</strong> that tax relief should be<br />
allowed on donations up to the sum <strong>of</strong> £500. In reply<br />
to something that I said on Monday, the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Bach, said that in nearly every case the Government<br />
<strong>of</strong> the day accepted the committee’s recommendations.<br />
On Monday, there was one example when they did not<br />
do so; here is a second example where they did not<br />
accept the recommendation in the 2000 Act. Further<br />
thought should be given to it today. One proposal that<br />
is occasionally raised but is now impossible is that<br />
funding should come directly from the state to the<br />
political parties. As a saleable proposition to the general<br />
public, that is now impossible, although it was always<br />
very unattractive.<br />
The proposal in Amendment 64 is a way to encourage<br />
people to perform what is a useful function <strong>of</strong> supporting<br />
political parties with their money. It does not go very<br />
far and will not cost very much and is something<br />
which, in the present climate, ought to be welcomed.<br />
I say one final word. If the amendments are pressed<br />
to a Division, I hope that we will be able to find a way<br />
to divorce that proposal from the cap. That would be<br />
desirable. I see the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, nodding<br />
his head. Perhaps we could, when we get to that point,<br />
have a Division on the question <strong>of</strong> whether tax relief<br />
should be allowed on either the £500 figure or the £15<br />
limit proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours,<br />
and not have it confused with what is in principle a<br />
wholly different issue: the capping at £50,000.<br />
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, perhaps I could explain.<br />
Amendment 38 will be voted on separately and then<br />
there will be a vote on Amendment 64 and the amendment<br />
to it. From the point <strong>of</strong> view <strong>of</strong> voting, they will be<br />
completely separate.<br />
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I have not taken part in the<br />
debates on this Bill before, but I hope that your<br />
Lordships will permit a small intervention. I listened<br />
to the speech <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, which he<br />
described as a brief canter round the course. Having<br />
listened to all 13 minutes <strong>of</strong> it, I was stung into taking<br />
part by something that he said right at the beginning,<br />
which was that the £50,000 cap is agreed by all <strong>of</strong> us. I<br />
do not know whether that means the Labour Party,<br />
the Liberal party and the Front Bench <strong>of</strong> the Conservative<br />
Party, but it is certainly not agreed by me—not that<br />
that makes a great deal <strong>of</strong> difference.<br />
I can never understand why there is such a fuss<br />
about having a cap. It seems to me that either we have<br />
parties funded by the state—as the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Neill, said, that is now, fortunately, impossible—or we<br />
have them funded by people who support them. If<br />
people support their party, I cannot see why there<br />
should be limits on the amount by which they support<br />
it. It would therefore be a great mistake if we tried to<br />
cut down the support given, whether to the Labour<br />
Party or to the Conservative Party—or even if the<br />
Liberals can find a bit here or there. It would be a pity<br />
to cut the limit, because all that means is that everyone<br />
has to go chasing around finding more money elsewhere<br />
or, alternatively, running into deficit.<br />
4pm<br />
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I hesitate to<br />
dissent from a view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Neill <strong>of</strong> Bladen, but I would say the following to him<br />
on the question <strong>of</strong> state funding. If you put state<br />
funding directly to the British people, as against a<br />
system that in part almost invites corruption, I know<br />
on which side the public would come down. The<br />
problem with the argument about state funding is that<br />
we have never really set out the reasons why those <strong>of</strong><br />
us who support it so passionately do so. We believe<br />
that it is a far more honest way <strong>of</strong> funding political<br />
parties and that it avoids all the difficulties that we<br />
have had over not just this recent period but the last<br />
10 years.<br />
My Amendment 65 is a probing amendment and I<br />
can assure my noble friends that I do not intend to<br />
push it to a vote. However, I would like to say this:<br />
Amendment 29 dovetails very neatly with this amendment.<br />
That is because the truth is, and we all know it, that<br />
political parties will be affected by what has happened<br />
over Amendment 29. Political parties will inevitably<br />
have to find different ways <strong>of</strong> raising revenue. The<br />
principle behind these amendments is that a covenanting<br />
tax-relief system would provide an alternative.<br />
My problem with the amendments moved from the<br />
Liberal Democrat Benches is the cost. That was the<br />
concern that I expressed in Committee. If I remember<br />
rightly, the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, had, throughout<br />
the period <strong>of</strong> the Thatcher Administration, an important<br />
position in government—certainly in the Treasury in<br />
the years when I was in the Commons. In Committee,<br />
he said:<br />
“I will be arguing that every proposal for tax relief or for<br />
further state funding should be looked at extraordinarily carefully<br />
and be very well justified. Given the state <strong>of</strong> the public finances<br />
today, I would not put forward such a case … I hope that, in more<br />
propitious times, we can address this again in preference to<br />
further state funding. It is the right way to proceed”.—[Official<br />
Report, 5/5/09; col. GC 222.]<br />
I agree with that sentiment. It is the way forward, but<br />
the problem is that we are in difficult financial conditions<br />
and I have great reservations about an amendment<br />
that would oblige the Treasury to stump up a substantial<br />
amount <strong>of</strong> cash.<br />
The reason why I tabled my amendment is that it<br />
would cost the Treasury almost nothing but would put<br />
in place a framework on which we could build in the
1075 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1076<br />
[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS]<br />
future. I imagine a system—in the more propitious<br />
times to which the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor,<br />
referred—where, annually, either some inflationary<br />
measure is applied to it or the threshold is raised. I<br />
think that we should be impressing on the Treasury,<br />
and on my friend Jack Straw in the other place, the<br />
importance <strong>of</strong> accepting an amendment <strong>of</strong> this nature<br />
in legislation.<br />
I do not know whether the Liberal Democrat Benches<br />
intend to push this to a vote today. However, if the<br />
amendment were to be carried, it would be possible<br />
during Commons consideration <strong>of</strong> Lords amendments<br />
for the Government to introduce a more appropriate<br />
sum—a sum that could be afforded. I simply wonder<br />
whether that might be in the mind <strong>of</strong> Ministers if they<br />
have to reject this amendment today. If it is rejected<br />
today, I can say to my noble friends that I will be<br />
lobbying fairly extensively over the next few days,<br />
prior to Third Reading, for perhaps some concession<br />
to be made by the Government. I hope that we do not<br />
simply say no out <strong>of</strong> hand and reject this for all time; I<br />
hope that we can perhaps see a little flexibility in the<br />
response from the Dispatch Box by my noble friend.<br />
Viscount Tenby: My Lords, I rise with some<br />
diffidence—and, perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers,<br />
will be pleased to hear, briefly—to support<br />
Amendment 38.<br />
A great deal <strong>of</strong> money is thrown about at elections,<br />
as I experienced in my misspent youth when I was<br />
involved in the marketing and advertising pr<strong>of</strong>essions,<br />
with all the pr<strong>of</strong>ligacy <strong>of</strong> Russian oligarchs. No one<br />
disputes the need for realistic budgets, but the siren<br />
voices <strong>of</strong> advertising and marketing men should be<br />
firmly resisted. Nothing disconnects the electorate<br />
from the electoral process more than huge sums <strong>of</strong><br />
money, hitherto camouflaged in some cases, being<br />
dispensed in this way, together with the unwillingness<br />
<strong>of</strong> politicians <strong>of</strong> every party to embrace the idea that<br />
the electors themselves should be asked to make very<br />
modest contributions to the electoral process.<br />
I do not wish to seem cynical, but it <strong>of</strong>ten seems<br />
that the more the amount <strong>of</strong> money spent in election<br />
campaigns rises, the more the number <strong>of</strong> people voting<br />
in elections falls. Surely this is a very unhealthy state <strong>of</strong><br />
affairs, which I suggest we can put right today.<br />
Lord MacGregor <strong>of</strong> Pulham Market: My Lords, I<br />
shall speak to Amendments 64 and 66, and to some<br />
extent to Amendment 65. As the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Goodhart, said, I was a member <strong>of</strong> the Committee on<br />
Standards in Public Life, which first put forward this<br />
recommendation. I was very disappointed that this<br />
was one <strong>of</strong> the very few <strong>of</strong> our recommendations that<br />
the Government rejected in their response. Indeed,<br />
they never really gave any reasons against it, so I am<br />
very pleased that we are having this debate again today<br />
to talk about the principle and to see whether we can<br />
find some way forward.<br />
I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours,<br />
that I fully appreciate as an ex-Chief Secretary—I<br />
think this was what he was referring to—that we must<br />
be very careful in the current circumstances about the<br />
extent to which we encourage increased tax relief or<br />
extra expenditure. What I think we are really trying to<br />
do today is take advantage <strong>of</strong> the Bill, which gives us<br />
the opportunity to establish the principle. My one<br />
difficulty with his amendment is that he refers to<br />
£15 as the limit in 2010-11. Frankly, no one will take it<br />
up at that level. The administration would be very<br />
high, and if it seemed not to work it might be regarded<br />
as a policy that was not worth while. That is my<br />
difficulty with the figure. However, if we agree on the<br />
principle in the House today, there is still an opportunity<br />
to try to get it into legislation and to work out the<br />
timetable for it.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, in his usual<br />
exemplary fashion, gave all the reasons for accepting<br />
this proposal, so I shall emphasise just two points. The<br />
first relates to party funding. In my earlier years in<br />
politics, very many people in our constituencies spent<br />
a great deal <strong>of</strong> time not only actively campaigning but<br />
actively raising funds for party political work. That<br />
was hugely to the benefit <strong>of</strong> the democratic process. So<br />
much came from these small donations and fundraising<br />
activities, and it was entirely healthy. It spread interest<br />
in the democratic process, and spread political engagement<br />
much more widely.<br />
Equally, it is unhealthy to be too reliant on large<br />
personal donations; on substantial corporate funding,<br />
although that is largely diminished now if not defunct<br />
altogether; trade union support; and, above all, on<br />
state funding, which requires no activity beyond winning<br />
votes to get it. The principle here is therefore highly<br />
desirable and is a way <strong>of</strong> re-encouraging small donations.<br />
The emphasis is on small donations, which cannot be<br />
abused by large donors getting tax relief for them. We<br />
recommended the limit <strong>of</strong> £500 in 1998, so in principle<br />
I would be in favour <strong>of</strong> indexing beyond the £500 limit.<br />
The point that has been made about President Obama’s<br />
success in the American presidential elections is very<br />
clearly correct, too. This is an important way <strong>of</strong><br />
encouraging wider participation in the political process.<br />
I shall put my second point, which goes much<br />
wider, very concisely. When I first entered public life<br />
and got involved in politics almost 50 years ago, and<br />
entered <strong>Parliament</strong> 35 years ago, it was a pr<strong>of</strong>ession<br />
held in high regard. MPs were regarded with great<br />
respect in their constituencies and more widely, and it<br />
was a high aspiration to become an MP. Many in other<br />
careers entered <strong>Parliament</strong> half way through their<br />
active life because they felt that it was very worth while<br />
and were prepared to make sacrifices, including that <strong>of</strong><br />
family life and financially, to do so. It is a matter <strong>of</strong><br />
pr<strong>of</strong>ound distress to me that parliamentary activity<br />
and the role <strong>of</strong> an MP are regarded in the way that<br />
they are today.<br />
I believe that nothing is more important than working<br />
for your constituents in the most important institution<br />
in the land. Above all, it is important to remember<br />
that Ministers are largely drawn from this pool. They<br />
make bigger and more pr<strong>of</strong>ound decisions than others<br />
in leading positions in most walks <strong>of</strong> life. Yet those<br />
who aspire to these roles are being demeaned in public<br />
and, in my view, are seriously underpaid compared to<br />
those in leading positions in business, the pr<strong>of</strong>essions<br />
and most other activities. My concern is not for the
1077 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1078<br />
good people in public life who are currently being so<br />
derided, but, above all, given the current environment,<br />
for the good people from other pr<strong>of</strong>essions who would<br />
have a real role to play and could enter politics. That is<br />
one <strong>of</strong> the most serious things facing our nation. It<br />
will be easy enough perhaps to get people to stand, but<br />
it will be extremely difficult to get people <strong>of</strong> the<br />
quality we want in <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
I believe that this proposal plays some small part in<br />
dealing with that problem. Charitable activities are<br />
regarded as worth while and therefore attract relief. As<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, there is an<br />
interesting analogy with inheritance tax where this<br />
concept is accepted; yet we are not prepared to extend<br />
it to income tax. Therefore, I also take the point made<br />
by, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, in Committee.<br />
Many charities are engaged almost in political activity<br />
for which they get tax relief, but those who are primarily<br />
involved in the activity and want to support it get no<br />
tax relief at all. Taking this principle today, if not the<br />
immediate implementation, sends a message <strong>of</strong> pr<strong>of</strong>ound<br />
importance, which is why I so strongly support it.<br />
Baroness Turner <strong>of</strong> Camden: My Lords, I am sorry<br />
that I have not been able for various reasons to participate<br />
earlier in discussion <strong>of</strong> this legislation. I should like to<br />
make one or two points on Amendment 39, and I<br />
speak as someone who has been a trade union <strong>of</strong>ficial<br />
for most <strong>of</strong> my life. I understand the desire to ensure<br />
that there is proper democratic accountability for the<br />
use <strong>of</strong> funds and so on. However, there is already in<br />
place a fair amount <strong>of</strong> legislation designed to ensure<br />
just that. There are arrangements under which members<br />
can contract out <strong>of</strong> the obligation to pay the political<br />
levy at any time they wish to do so. The political funds<br />
are normally quite separate. The executive have to be<br />
accountable to the membership for their use <strong>of</strong> them.<br />
In my union and, I believe, in all unions, there is a<br />
section in the rule book which governs the way in<br />
which political funds are collected and administered.<br />
People can also complain to the registration <strong>of</strong>ficer.<br />
Under this amendment, there would seem to be a<br />
lot <strong>of</strong> extra bureaucracy, and I query whether it is<br />
necessary. If the present laws are operated—I have no<br />
evidence that they are not properly operated—I do not<br />
think that there is any necessity to have any further<br />
provision in legislation. I should be interested to know<br />
whether my noble friends on the Front Bench have a<br />
different view, but that is my view at present.<br />
4.15 pm<br />
Lord Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts: My Lords, my<br />
name is down in support <strong>of</strong> Amendment 38 covering<br />
the proposal to insert a £50,000 cap on donations. I<br />
wish my name had also gone down on Amendment 39,<br />
because I think they are paired, but owing to a gremlin<br />
somewhere, unfortunately that has not happened.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has outlined the case<br />
for the cap extensively and I do not propose to plough<br />
that field again. Suffice it to say that, for me, more<br />
supporters, more members and more donors in all<br />
political parties are good for our democracy because<br />
that achieves a broader base <strong>of</strong> support and involvement.<br />
Fewer, larger donors carry dangers for our democracy.<br />
I say “carry” dangers rather than necessarily have<br />
them. The obvious question is the influence <strong>of</strong> wealthy<br />
donors on the policies <strong>of</strong> a party, and here I touch on<br />
the point made by my noble friend Lord Ferrers: it is<br />
not just whether they do or they do not have an<br />
influence, but whether there is a public suspicion that<br />
they might. Public suspicion is highly corrosive, because<br />
it carries the seeds <strong>of</strong> destruction <strong>of</strong> belief in the<br />
system and the way it operates. That is why the argument<br />
that the liberty <strong>of</strong> a person to give any amount to a<br />
party, which underlay his comments earlier, does not<br />
hold water in this sensitive area.<br />
This idea poses challenges for the two major parties.<br />
Historically, my party has benefited from large donors,<br />
although in recent years the Labour Party has largely<br />
caught up; whether that has been to its advantage is<br />
not for me to say. The Labour Party also benefits from<br />
the automatic nature <strong>of</strong> the political levy <strong>of</strong> the trades<br />
unions. I say to the noble Baroness that I am afraid<br />
there is too much anecdotal evidence <strong>of</strong> the way in<br />
which the donations are shuffled through without<br />
individual trades union members having a real say,<br />
and that knocks on the head the idea that the safeguards<br />
proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, are not<br />
required.<br />
I do not underestimate the challenges that these<br />
issues represent and the controversy that they will<br />
arouse, but surely, in the present circumstances, we<br />
need to face them. As has been said in the debate<br />
today, as was said on Monday, and as was said in<br />
Committee, there is a crisis <strong>of</strong> loss <strong>of</strong> faith in our<br />
democratic system. It is no good us wringing our<br />
hands and saying that it is all too difficult. That is the<br />
response <strong>of</strong> people who live inside the Westminster<br />
bubble, and I believe that our fellow citizens demand<br />
more <strong>of</strong> us today.<br />
Lord Bates: In speaking to these amendments,<br />
perhaps I may preface my remarks by apologising to<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, because I was not<br />
precisely in my place when he spoke. I was finding my<br />
way through the crowd as he rose to move the<br />
amendment. There was a degree <strong>of</strong> cross-party<br />
harmony on the previous piece <strong>of</strong> legislation that may<br />
not continue into this Bill, but we will see.<br />
The series <strong>of</strong> amendments we are discussing fall<br />
into two principal areas. One is the argument about<br />
donations. We discussed this at length in Committee<br />
and it was quite widely recognised that there is an<br />
anomaly in party political contributions, which do<br />
contribute towards the democratic health <strong>of</strong> our country.<br />
Indeed, the point was just made that if one is concerned<br />
about the environment and chooses to make a donation<br />
to a political party, that money is not eligible for tax<br />
relief. If someone chooses to make a donation to<br />
Greenpeace or another organisation, it is. That is a<br />
clear anomaly which needs to be addressed at some<br />
stage, although I stress the point that it should be<br />
considered at some stage. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart,<br />
said that the cost <strong>of</strong> such a measure to the Exchequer<br />
would be around £4 million. I have no way <strong>of</strong> knowing<br />
whether the figure should be higher or lower, but my<br />
sense <strong>of</strong> the public mood at this time suggests that it<br />
would be difficult to argue in favour <strong>of</strong> an additional<br />
£4 million or £5 million <strong>of</strong> public funding being made<br />
available for political parties. While certainly we on
1079 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1080<br />
[LORD BATES]<br />
these Benches are happy to put on the record the fact<br />
that this is something we need to move towards in<br />
principle, timing is everything in these matters, and<br />
now is probably not the time to do this.<br />
Whether we should act on the suggestion in the<br />
probing amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Campbell-Savours, that it should be bumped into another<br />
fiscal year would depend on the circumstances at the<br />
time. However, in this case the position <strong>of</strong> these<br />
Benches—certainly <strong>of</strong> the Front Bench—is to support<br />
it in principle but to question the timing.<br />
This leads me to the wider issue <strong>of</strong> the donations<br />
cap. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was generous in his<br />
citations <strong>of</strong> my remarks on the first day <strong>of</strong> Report<br />
when I referred to the importance <strong>of</strong> taking big money<br />
and the significant influence that it has out <strong>of</strong> politics.<br />
I take the points that have been presented with such<br />
clarity by my noble friend Lord Hodgson in this<br />
regard. However, whether we are talking about perceived<br />
or actual influence, it is how the public perceive the<br />
political process that is important.<br />
The Liberal Democrats, <strong>of</strong> course, have their own<br />
problems with major donors. Michael Brown, who<br />
donated £2.5 million, has turned out to be a convicted<br />
fraudster and yet they refuse to repay that money. It is<br />
important in debates <strong>of</strong> this nature to recognise that<br />
this is a problem for party politics which needs to be<br />
sorted out. It is not only a problem for the two main<br />
political parties; it affects all political parties.<br />
This was touched upon by Sir Hayden Phillips in<br />
his first <strong>report</strong>, Strengthening Democracy: Fair and<br />
Sustainable Funding <strong>of</strong> Political Parties—The Review<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Funding <strong>of</strong> Political Parties—March 2007, which<br />
was in many ways the forerunner <strong>of</strong> the Hayden<br />
Phillips process. He set out a principle which is worth<br />
repeating at this stage. He said that his principle would<br />
be that nothing should be agreed until everything is<br />
agreed. It is an interesting point. He recognised the<br />
complexity <strong>of</strong> the number <strong>of</strong> different moving parts<br />
necessary to restore confidence in public life. Whether<br />
it refers to major donations or to some <strong>of</strong> the other<br />
issues touched on in another place concerning<br />
constitutional reform, there is something holistic about<br />
the need to tackle the whole issue in the round.<br />
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, to say that nothing can<br />
be done until everything can be done is, surely, a<br />
wholly absurd position to take. A series <strong>of</strong> steps have<br />
been taken, including the 2000 Act, which followed<br />
the <strong>report</strong> <strong>of</strong> the committee, being amended in the<br />
Electoral Administration Act 2006. This is a piecemeal<br />
operation.<br />
Lord Tyler: A very Conservative one, my Lords.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, the noble Lord’s concern is<br />
not necessarily with me but with Sir Hayden Phillips’s<br />
principle number one. If he dissents from that, he is<br />
entitled to make the point. I happen to disagree with<br />
him. There is an argument that piecemeal reform<br />
sometimes lacks overarching principles. However, good<br />
legislation has overarching principles that should be<br />
followed through in the process <strong>of</strong> getting everyone to<br />
the table in order to reach some agreement.<br />
That leads me to a key point on the donations cap.<br />
There is a certain unstated element—I shall say no<br />
more than that—on which I hope the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Tyler, might comment. I should be grateful for<br />
some clarity lest I inadvertently cast some aspersion<br />
on the motives here. There is an implication <strong>of</strong> a<br />
donations cap, as envisaged by the Hayden Phillips<br />
review. To plug the gap, there would be an introduction<br />
<strong>of</strong> public funding. The noble Lord is shaking his head,<br />
so I will be happy to take that away. However, the<br />
White Paper, Party Finance and Expenditure in the<br />
<strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>, says:<br />
“The public funding schemes he proposed”—<br />
that is, Sir Hayden Phillips—<br />
“based on a donations cap <strong>of</strong> £50,000, would have an overall cost<br />
<strong>of</strong> around £20-£25m per year”.<br />
Four million pounds here, £20 million to £25 million<br />
there—we are beginning to build up to some significant<br />
sums <strong>of</strong> money. That comes on top <strong>of</strong> a concern that<br />
some people may be seeking tactical advantage, rather<br />
than a principled point <strong>of</strong> seeing a decline in income<br />
or a concern over future income streams, and hoping<br />
to replace it with public funding as a whole.<br />
When we talk about party funding, in many ways<br />
the arms race has been triggered by a dramatic increase<br />
in the amount <strong>of</strong> funding that is available to Members<br />
<strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> in their constituencies—the incumbency<br />
factor. When I was serving in the other place, the<br />
<strong>of</strong>fice cost allowance, as it was called then, was in the<br />
region <strong>of</strong> £30,000. It was effectively enough to have an<br />
assistant, perhaps a part-time caseworker in the<br />
constituency, and then to pay for your printing, postage<br />
and telephones. Now that figure is up to £90,000 just<br />
for staff, and there is an additional element, the incidental<br />
expenses provision, which is another £21,000.<br />
Lord Campbell-Savours: Communications.<br />
Lord Bates: I am coming to that, my Lords. As the<br />
noble Lord points out, there is also a communications<br />
allowance <strong>of</strong> £10,000 per year. Over the lifetime <strong>of</strong> a<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>, that builds up to £50,000 spent in a particular<br />
constituency on promoting the case <strong>of</strong> the incumbent<br />
Member. It is therefore not surprising that the nongoverning<br />
party, the non-incumbent, would seek to<br />
raise funds to try to match the firepower that has been<br />
ranged against it in a democratic process.<br />
I wish only to put that point on the record. I am not<br />
saying that I have an answer for it, nor am I saying<br />
what we ought to do about those allowances. That<br />
needs to be addressed as part <strong>of</strong> the Kelly review that<br />
is taking place, along with the questions <strong>of</strong> whether<br />
they are inadvertently funding big money donations<br />
and encouraging reliance on those big donations.<br />
The interparty talks were an important part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
process and all parties have engaged in them. The<br />
argument was that if we were going to have meaningful<br />
reform, all the political parties needed to get around<br />
the table, have their heads metaphorically banged<br />
together and sort this out, realising that there is a<br />
problem. The trade unions are perceived to have an<br />
influence on the Government. It causes concern from<br />
time to time when you see questions in debates about<br />
public sector funding cuts, and then you have a party
1081 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1082<br />
in government faced with the prospect <strong>of</strong> a union that<br />
represents members in the public sector threatening to<br />
withhold a £1 million donation, which was announced<br />
this week, unless it gets some movement. The fact that<br />
three out <strong>of</strong> every four pounds that the Labour Party<br />
receives is from the trade unions has a disproportionate<br />
influence on the process.<br />
4.30 pm<br />
I listened carefully to the expertise in the House<br />
regarding how trade union membership works. One <strong>of</strong><br />
our principal disagreements about the proposed<br />
amendment on the donation cap, apart from the<br />
implications for public funding, is that it says that a<br />
member should be afforded an opportunity during the<br />
12 months following the relevant expenditure to be<br />
exempted from contributing to the political fund <strong>of</strong><br />
the union. Our party believes that it needs to go<br />
further. There ought to be an opportunity for an<br />
individual member to indicate whether they consent to<br />
having their fund given to a political party. In most<br />
cases such funding goes to the Labour Party, but I<br />
believe that the Liberal Democrats also get funding<br />
from UNISON. If this is a political levy, individual<br />
members <strong>of</strong> the union should have the right to express<br />
their preference regarding which political party it ought<br />
to go to. They should be able to do so by opting in to<br />
the political fund, rather than having it assumed and<br />
having to go through the process <strong>of</strong> contracting out.<br />
The last meeting <strong>of</strong> the inter-party talks on the<br />
funding <strong>of</strong> political parties, chaired by Sir Hayden<br />
Phillips, took place on 31 October 2007. It was suggested<br />
that these had somehow broken down and been brought<br />
to an undue end because <strong>of</strong> the Conservative Party’s<br />
attitude to funding. That is not the case, as the minutes<br />
show. On the second <strong>of</strong> the three pages <strong>of</strong> the minutes<br />
<strong>of</strong> the final meeting held on 31 October 2007, Sir Hayden<br />
Phillips said:<br />
“As far as trade union affiliation fees the Conservative Party<br />
argued that the changes on affiliation fees contained in the draft<br />
agreement would only take people to where they believed the<br />
situation was at the current time regarding individual choice.<br />
Their view was that individual trade unionists should be able to<br />
make clearly voluntary donations to any party <strong>of</strong> the individual’s<br />
choice. They hoped the Labour Party would be willing to continue<br />
the Talks on the basis <strong>of</strong> further proposals which could be<br />
developed”<br />
on this point. He continued:<br />
“The Conservative Party saw no necessity for further controls<br />
on party spending, but would continue to discuss them as part <strong>of</strong><br />
a package”<br />
<strong>of</strong> reforms. This is Sir Hayden’s concluding point in<br />
the final meeting. It is worth getting on the record<br />
because the point <strong>of</strong> breakdown in the inter-party<br />
talks is something that has been discussed quite <strong>of</strong>ten.<br />
On page 3 <strong>of</strong> the minutes <strong>of</strong> the same meeting, Sir Hayden<br />
said that,<br />
“if the other two parties were willing to accept the Conservatives’<br />
proposals made in this meeting as the basis for further work, then<br />
it would be worthwhile asking the Secretariat to prepare further<br />
papers. Third, if there was no realistic prospect <strong>of</strong> an agreement<br />
at the present time on either basis, then the Talks should be<br />
suspended”.<br />
That is the final entry in the minutes because talks<br />
were suspended. It shows that there was clearly a<br />
breakdown in the inter-party talks on this central<br />
issue. I return to that principle to say that a holistic<br />
approach was absolutely necessary on this. I do not<br />
think that the public have the stomach for the significant<br />
increases that would be the consequence <strong>of</strong> the<br />
amendment being agreed. On the public funding <strong>of</strong><br />
political parties, the need is very much for the inter-party<br />
talks to be reconvened to reintroduce and put everything<br />
on the table, including the developments that occurred<br />
before that time.<br />
This is a wide-ranging group <strong>of</strong> amendments and I<br />
apologise for taking so long to speak to them. However,<br />
they are very significant in terms <strong>of</strong> people’s future<br />
confidence in democracy. The amendment before us<br />
does not go nearly far enough; we need to go further.<br />
The cross-party talks need to be in place and there<br />
needs to be a holistic approach which embraces all<br />
these issues and recognises public attitudes and timing<br />
as regards current economic conditions.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, this has been a very<br />
interesting debate in which many noble Lords have<br />
taken part. I hope that they will forgive me if I do not<br />
respond in detail to each point, but I shall touch on all<br />
the fundamental points that have been raised. However,<br />
there will be a couple <strong>of</strong> exceptions. I shall not respond<br />
to the very interesting speech <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord<br />
MacGregor, about our political life apart from<br />
commenting on what he said about donations. I am<br />
sure that part <strong>of</strong> his speech will resonate in many<br />
quarters. I hope that that debate continues and reaches<br />
a proper conclusion in the interests <strong>of</strong> the health <strong>of</strong><br />
our democracy. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Bates, will forgive me as I cannot possibly touch on all<br />
the detail <strong>of</strong> his speech as I am cognisant <strong>of</strong> our<br />
objective to complete Report stage today.<br />
This group <strong>of</strong> amendments relates to the establishment<br />
<strong>of</strong> a cap on donations, treatment <strong>of</strong> contributions<br />
under that cap and a system <strong>of</strong> tax relief for donations.<br />
Amendment 38 would establish a cap <strong>of</strong> £50,000 per<br />
year on the amount that an individual or organisation<br />
could donate to a registered political party. Contributions<br />
from trade union political funds would be subject to<br />
this cap unless they adhered to the conditions set out<br />
in Amendment 39. These conditions seek to create a<br />
clear link between the amount paid in individual<br />
contributions to a union’s political fund, by way <strong>of</strong><br />
affiliation fees, and the amount <strong>of</strong> any subsequent<br />
donation made by the union.<br />
The Bill is the result <strong>of</strong> a painstaking search for<br />
consensus between the parties. The Government’s<br />
overriding priority throughout has been to ensure<br />
broad cross-party agreement to the changes that the<br />
Bill will make. It simply would not be acceptable to<br />
make far-reaching changes to legislation in this area<br />
without such agreement. The amendments before us<br />
today are identical to amendments that have already<br />
been debated both in Grand Committee and the other<br />
place. On each occasion they have failed to command<br />
support across the House.<br />
When Amendment 38 was put to a vote in the other<br />
place it did not receive support from either the<br />
Conservative Party or the Labour Party. When<br />
Amendments 38 and 39 were debated in Grand<br />
Committee, they again failed to find cross-party<br />
support. And, as we have heard in the debate today,
1083 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1084<br />
[LORD TUNNICLIFFE]<br />
the proposals contained in the amendments are simply<br />
not broadly supported in your Lordships’ House. I<br />
shall briefly set out again why they are not supported<br />
by the Government.<br />
The idea <strong>of</strong> a cap on donations is not a new one.<br />
Two recent major <strong>report</strong>s on party funding—the<br />
Constitutional Affairs Select Committee <strong>report</strong> <strong>of</strong> 2006<br />
and the Sir Hayden Phillips review <strong>of</strong> 2007—both<br />
recommended that a cap should be instituted. The<br />
noble Lord may claim, as he did in Grand Committee<br />
and has again today, that his amendments “absolutely<br />
follow” what was put to the parties by Sir Hayden in<br />
the cross-party talks that followed the publication <strong>of</strong><br />
his <strong>report</strong>. In fact, Sir Hayden proposed that a cap<br />
should be phased in gradually, beginning initially at a<br />
level <strong>of</strong> £500,000 and reaching the level <strong>of</strong> £50,000<br />
only after a period <strong>of</strong> four years.<br />
The noble Lord must also be aware that both the<br />
Constitutional Affairs Select Committee and Sir Hayden<br />
were explicit that a donation cap could be introduced<br />
only alongside an increase in state funding. In considering<br />
the effects <strong>of</strong> the package <strong>of</strong> measures he proposed,<br />
Sir Hayden said they,<br />
“would impose significant restrictions on the parties’ freedom to<br />
raise their own funds, and new obligations in terms <strong>of</strong> compliance<br />
and <strong>report</strong>ing. These measures are in the public interest, and it is<br />
fair and reasonable to use public funds to help <strong>of</strong>fset their<br />
financial impact”.<br />
Sir Hayden was also quite clear that his recommendations<br />
on party funding needed to be considered as a whole<br />
package. So if the noble Lord wishes to pray in aid Sir<br />
Hayden’s review for his amendments, he must acknowledge<br />
that he is also arguing for an increase in the level <strong>of</strong><br />
state funding <strong>of</strong> politics. The increase would be significant.<br />
The Government’s White Paper, Party Finance and<br />
Expenditure in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>, calculated that a<br />
cap <strong>of</strong> £50,000 would result in a reduction <strong>of</strong> income<br />
<strong>of</strong> £5 million to £6 million each year for the two<br />
largest parties.<br />
The Government’s view on this matter is clear. We<br />
do not consider that an increase in the level <strong>of</strong> public<br />
funding, particularly <strong>of</strong> the magnitude that would be<br />
required to <strong>of</strong>fset the imposition <strong>of</strong> a donation cap, is<br />
acceptable to either the political parties or the public.<br />
Public support for politicians and political parties<br />
could scarcely be lower than it is currently. It would<br />
defy all logic to test taxpayers’ patience even further<br />
by asking them to contribute more money to the<br />
parties. Noble Lords may argue that any increase in<br />
state funding should be made only as a result <strong>of</strong><br />
reductions in government spending in other areas;<br />
however, we still think it highly unlikely that the public<br />
would support the general principle <strong>of</strong> an increase in<br />
the state funding <strong>of</strong> politics.<br />
Amendment 39 relates to how union contributions<br />
would be treated under the donation cap. It could not<br />
be agreed unless amendment 38 was accepted. The<br />
funding activities <strong>of</strong> trade unions are already very<br />
tightly regulated as a result <strong>of</strong> successive Acts passed<br />
during the 1980s and 1990s. In its 1998 <strong>report</strong>, the<br />
Committee on Standards in Public Life considered<br />
trade union political funds. It concluded:<br />
“We have received no evidence to suggest that the legislation is<br />
not working satisfactorily, and no case has been made out for any<br />
reform. We do not propose any change in the law in this respect”.<br />
The Government agree with that conclusion. However,<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and other noble Lords<br />
have today again raised concerns about the funding<br />
activities <strong>of</strong> unions. Perhaps I may put on the<br />
record, once again, the words <strong>of</strong> my right honourable<br />
friend the Minister <strong>of</strong> State in the debate on Second<br />
Reading in the other place. He noted that affiliated<br />
unions recently wrote to the Labour Party general<br />
secretary,<br />
“to confirm that they will voluntarily provide more information<br />
to members about the collection and use <strong>of</strong> political funds and<br />
the individual member’s right to opt out, and that the affiliates<br />
will introduce a common text for incorporation into membership<br />
materials, including application forms. In addition, the affiliates<br />
agreed that full affiliation <strong>of</strong> the levy-paying membership is the<br />
most transparent form <strong>of</strong> political membership, and moves will<br />
be made to that end”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/10/08;<br />
col. 120.]<br />
The Government consider that transparency in party<br />
finance is the key requirement. A cap on donations<br />
could increase the incentive to divert donations<br />
through other routes and could therefore have the<br />
ultimate effect <strong>of</strong> decreasing transparency. As I have<br />
set out, it would require a significant and unjustifiable<br />
increase in the state funding <strong>of</strong> politics. For those<br />
reasons, we are not minded to support its introduction<br />
and I hope the noble Lord will agree not to press the<br />
amendment.<br />
I turn now to Amendments 64 to 66. Amendments 64<br />
and 66 would introduce a system <strong>of</strong> tax relief on<br />
donations to political parties. This would be along<br />
similar lines to the system <strong>of</strong> gift aid already in place<br />
for contributions to charities, albeit with certain key<br />
differences. They would perhaps be intended to<br />
compensate parties for the shortfall <strong>of</strong> income that<br />
might result from the imposition <strong>of</strong> the cap proposed<br />
in Amendment 38. The amount available to political<br />
parties under the system proposed in Amendment 64<br />
would be capped at £500 per donor per year and<br />
would be limited only to basic rate income tax. In<br />
order to qualify to receive relief, a political party<br />
would have to have at least two MPs elected to the<br />
House <strong>of</strong> Commons at the preceding general election.<br />
These amendments were considered in Grand<br />
Committee and were well supported by noble Lords<br />
from all three main parties, although I note that <strong>of</strong> the<br />
main parties’ Front Benches only the Liberal Democrats<br />
spoke in favour <strong>of</strong> the amendments. My noble friend<br />
Lord Campbell-Savours spoke in favour <strong>of</strong> the<br />
amendments but suggested that the amount <strong>of</strong> relief<br />
available should, initially at least, be capped at £15 per<br />
donor per year, with the Government able to increase<br />
that amount by order in subsequent years. This is<br />
formally proposed in Amendment 65.<br />
As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, set out, a<br />
system <strong>of</strong> tax relief for political donations was first<br />
recommended by the Committee on Standards in<br />
Public Life in its landmark 1998 <strong>report</strong> on the funding <strong>of</strong><br />
political parties in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>, <strong>of</strong>ten<br />
referred to as the Neill <strong>report</strong> after the committee’s<br />
chairman at the time, the noble Lord, Lord Neill <strong>of</strong><br />
Bladen. The Government at the time accepted the<br />
vast majority <strong>of</strong> the Neill <strong>report</strong>’s recommendations in
1085 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1086<br />
the Bill that went on to become the Political<br />
Parties,Elections and Referendums Act 2000.<br />
However, we did not accept the recommendation<br />
to introduce tax relief and continue to oppose its<br />
introduction now.<br />
4.45 pm<br />
The Neill <strong>report</strong> set out a number <strong>of</strong> arguments in<br />
favour <strong>of</strong> introducing tax relief, some <strong>of</strong> which were<br />
repeated in Grand Committee and again today. The<br />
chief argument <strong>of</strong> principle advanced in the <strong>report</strong> is<br />
that it is more democratic and in the public interest for<br />
political parties to be funded by a large number <strong>of</strong><br />
small donations than a small number <strong>of</strong> large donations.<br />
The <strong>report</strong> considered that, by introducing tax relief,<br />
parties would be encouraged to make greater efforts to<br />
obtain smaller donations.<br />
The Government entirely support the principle that<br />
it is preferable for parties to develop a broad base <strong>of</strong><br />
support. However, that does not necessarily mean that<br />
the public purse should be employed to support that<br />
end. Parties are free to conduct their fundraising activities<br />
within the legislative framework. There are many steps<br />
that they could take to encourage a wider base <strong>of</strong><br />
donors which would not require what effectively amounts<br />
to an increase in state funding <strong>of</strong> politics.<br />
Noble Lords may argue that there is a distinction to<br />
be made between state funding and what is proposed<br />
in the amendments, in that the money would not come<br />
directly from the state, as the allocation and amount<br />
<strong>of</strong> relief would depend on the choice made by individuals.<br />
That may be so, but the end result would still be an<br />
increase in the money diverted from public funds to<br />
support political parties. As I have already set out, at<br />
present, when politicians and political parties are held<br />
in particularly low esteem by the public, we do not<br />
consider that there is any public appetite for increasing<br />
the money paid out by the state to support political<br />
parties.<br />
We must also consider the cost <strong>of</strong> any such scheme.<br />
Under current legislation, donations below £200 are<br />
not recorded, so it cannot be known how many donations<br />
would be affected by the measure and what it would<br />
cost. However, the Neill <strong>report</strong> recommended tax relief<br />
on donations <strong>of</strong> up to £500 per year. In their response<br />
to that <strong>report</strong>, the Government estimated that the loss<br />
<strong>of</strong> revenue as a result would be some £4 million to<br />
£5 million per year. The Government do not consider<br />
that such an increase in the amount <strong>of</strong> state subsidy <strong>of</strong><br />
politics is currently justified. Noble Lords may argue<br />
that, relative to total government spending, this would<br />
still be a small amount. The public perception, however,<br />
would be unlikely to take that argument into account,<br />
and would instead focus on the principle and the<br />
headline figure.<br />
My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has proposed<br />
in Amendment 65 that the amount <strong>of</strong> relief available<br />
should be set at a very low level, such that the cost to<br />
the public purse is low but that the principle <strong>of</strong> tax<br />
relief on political donations would nevertheless be<br />
established in legislation. As I set out, the Government<br />
do not agree that any increase in state subsidy <strong>of</strong><br />
politics is acceptable to the public in present circumstances.<br />
In any case, any system <strong>of</strong> tax relief would be expensive<br />
for both political parties and HMRC to administer.<br />
That point was remarked on in the Neill <strong>report</strong>, in the<br />
context <strong>of</strong> considering a minimum donation which<br />
would qualify for relief. The <strong>report</strong> said:<br />
“The cost <strong>of</strong> obtaining the signature by donors <strong>of</strong> the necessary<br />
forms, and the cost <strong>of</strong> keeping the necessary records will impose<br />
an administrative burden on political parties which means that,<br />
below some level, it will become uneconomic to claim tax relief<br />
on a donation”.<br />
Lord Brooke <strong>of</strong> Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, the<br />
Minister has acknowledged on behalf <strong>of</strong> the Government<br />
the desirability <strong>of</strong> broadening individual support for<br />
political parties. He went on to say that there were any<br />
number <strong>of</strong> opportunities available to parties so to<br />
broaden their membership. For his position to remain<br />
reasonable in rejecting the amendments, can he say<br />
what kind <strong>of</strong> ideas the Government have in mind for<br />
broadening membership at this stage?<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, it is not the role <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Government to advise political parties on how to<br />
broaden their sources <strong>of</strong> income. Indeed, if the<br />
Government and my party had any particularly bright<br />
ideas, we would be keeping them to ourselves for as<br />
long as we could.<br />
If we set the level <strong>of</strong> relief as low as my noble friend<br />
suggests, the administrative burden involved could all<br />
but cancel out the benefit <strong>of</strong> the relief. There is a<br />
further concern with my noble friend’s suggestion.<br />
Once the principle <strong>of</strong> relief is established in legislation,<br />
there would be little to stop future Governments increasing<br />
the sums involved, perhaps exponentially. It would be<br />
poor legislative practice to allow for such a possibility.<br />
Noble Lords might argue that state funding <strong>of</strong><br />
politics already exists in the form <strong>of</strong> Short money,<br />
Cranborne money, policy development grants and<br />
free postage at elections; so the principle is already<br />
well established. However, that money is provided<br />
with a specific purpose or political activity in mind. By<br />
contrast, tax relief on donations would amount to a<br />
broad subsidy on a political party’s general activity.<br />
The amendments do not propose any restriction on<br />
the purpose for which the relief income could be used.<br />
There is a risk that under the amendments a political<br />
party would receive income which could be spent for<br />
non-political purposes. This danger was acknowledged<br />
by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, when we first<br />
considered these matters in Grand Committee. The<br />
amendment before us does nothing to allay these<br />
fears, however.<br />
As has been noted, inheritance tax relief is currently<br />
provided on bequests to political parties. Noble Lords<br />
have argued that this suggests that the principle should<br />
be extended to income tax. I can only repeat what I<br />
said in Grand Committee. We are not in favour <strong>of</strong><br />
extending this anomaly any further.<br />
If carried and enacted, these amendments could<br />
effectively place political parties on an equal footing<br />
with charities. The Government do not agree that the<br />
two should be regarded as analogous. Charities can<br />
and do undertake campaigning activities, but only in<br />
the context <strong>of</strong> supporting the delivery <strong>of</strong> their charitable<br />
purpose. Guidance for charities is quite clear on the<br />
matter. In order to be a charity, an organisation must
1087 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1088<br />
[LORD TUNNICLIFFE]<br />
be established only for charitable purposes that are for<br />
the public benefit. An organisation will not be charitable<br />
if its purposes are political. Campaigning activity can<br />
be legitimate but it must not be the continuing and<br />
sole activity <strong>of</strong> the charity. There is thus a clear<br />
difference between the campaigning activities <strong>of</strong> a<br />
charity and those <strong>of</strong> a political party. The provision <strong>of</strong><br />
gift aid to charities does not imply that it should be<br />
provided to political parties. The Government do not<br />
support these amendments, and I hope that—<br />
Lord Maclennan <strong>of</strong> Rogart: My Lords, I deliberately<br />
refrained from intervening until the noble Lord was<br />
close to the end <strong>of</strong> his speech. I am bound to say—I<br />
ask him to comment—that he appears to be endeavouring<br />
to support the view that political parties are unworthy<br />
objects <strong>of</strong> finance by members <strong>of</strong> the public. He seems<br />
to be prepared to accept a specious argument that<br />
because <strong>of</strong> some misbehaviour by a handful <strong>of</strong> politicians<br />
the whole basis <strong>of</strong> our democratic system—which is<br />
political parties—should be penalised. In fact, he seems<br />
to be kow-towing to the most prejudiced views about<br />
our democracy. If he does not recognise the absolutely<br />
essential part <strong>of</strong> political parties, not only in campaigning<br />
but in developing policy for Governments, he is failing<br />
to do the task for which the public are paying him.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I did not particularly<br />
notice a question in that speech. I am drawing a clear<br />
distinction. There is a more or less universal consensus<br />
in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong> that charities are special; that<br />
they should have a peculiar position in our tax regime;<br />
that their activities should be carefully regulated by an<br />
Act that was passed relatively recently, after extensive<br />
debate in both Houses, which in particular stuck on<br />
the point that a charity should not be solely for the<br />
purpose <strong>of</strong> campaigning. I draw a distinction between<br />
political parties and charities. That is widely done.<br />
We are kidding ourselves if we think that the public<br />
out there are not at this moment asking themselves<br />
what political parties do and how they behave. Sadly—I<br />
entirely take the point <strong>of</strong> it being sad—the public do<br />
not hold political parties in the same regard and<br />
respect as they do the generality <strong>of</strong> charities. That is<br />
the basis on which I hope noble Lords will withdraw<br />
their amendments.<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, it falls to me to respond on<br />
the whole group <strong>of</strong> amendments, which I shall do as<br />
briefly as I possible can. It has been a most useful<br />
debate. I am very grateful for the support that has<br />
been expressed, not necessarily to the whole package<br />
that is represented in this group, but, in differing<br />
degrees, to important parts <strong>of</strong> the package.<br />
The speeches from the Minister and from the<br />
Conservative Back Bench reminded me that, whenever<br />
I look at the patron saints in the Central Lobby up on<br />
those murals, I think that we should replace them all<br />
with a mural <strong>of</strong> St Augustine, who, Members <strong>of</strong> your<br />
Lordships’ House will recall, said, “Lord, make me<br />
virtuous—but not yet”. Everybody who has opposed—<br />
very few have opposed—the proposals in the amendments<br />
seems to be in favour <strong>of</strong> them, but not yet.<br />
I am particularly struck by those who think that<br />
somehow or other it is perfectly appropriate for the<br />
dead to make contributions to political parties through<br />
the tax system, but somehow those <strong>of</strong> us who are alive<br />
are not able to do so. That is an extraordinary anomaly,<br />
to which my noble friend Lord Goodhart has referred.<br />
It is also ridiculous to suggest that those charities that<br />
make a virtue <strong>of</strong> their campaigning in political matters—<br />
small “p”; they are not supporting political parties—are<br />
given full tax concessions from all donations, and<br />
yet political parties are somehow thought to be second rate.<br />
I would resist absolutely the suggestions that somehow<br />
or other this is the thin end <strong>of</strong> the wedge for an<br />
increase in state funding. I must say in passing that the<br />
Conservative Party is <strong>of</strong> course the biggest recipient <strong>of</strong><br />
state funding. The leader <strong>of</strong> the Conservative Party in<br />
the other place, in this place and a number <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>fices<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Conservative Party receive state funding in a<br />
way that no other group does, not even the government<br />
party. Let us not fool ourselves that somehow state<br />
funding is a problem.<br />
It is, however, absolutely true that this particular set<br />
<strong>of</strong> amendments is not linked to state funding, except<br />
in this respect. As my noble friend said, the estimate is<br />
that, if there was the tax concession regime that he<br />
postulates, something between £3 million and £4 million<br />
might be the annual cost. I remind your Lordships’<br />
House that the current advertising budget <strong>of</strong> this<br />
Government is £300 million a year. This small sum,<br />
this little concession, is something in the region <strong>of</strong><br />
1 per cent or possibly 1.5 per cent. A lot <strong>of</strong> that<br />
funding for advertising is very close to party political<br />
persuasion. It comes a long way away from simply<br />
advertising what the Government are doing. It very<br />
<strong>of</strong>ten advertises what the Government wish to do.<br />
There is a point about the trades unions. I entirely<br />
understand the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness,<br />
Lady Turner. I must direct her attention, however, to<br />
what the Prime Minister—not some Minister in some<br />
debate, but the Prime Minister—said on 4 December<br />
2007:<br />
“I have told the trades union movement that we have got to<br />
make the changes in the political levy so that it is more transparent<br />
as well”.<br />
That is why the very careful safeguards set out in the<br />
review by Sir Hayden Phillips, which are endorsed in<br />
Amendment 39, are very appropriate.<br />
The Minister constantly—at Second Reading, in<br />
Grand Committee and again this afternoon—refers to<br />
the need for consensus. In Grand Committee, the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, quite rightly poohpoohed<br />
the need for consensus. Consensus means that<br />
you move as slow as the slowest movers, which, in this<br />
respect, happen to be some <strong>of</strong> the most retrograde in<br />
the Conservative Party. In that regard, I very much<br />
appreciate the support this afternoon from the<br />
Conservative Back Benches. Here, I think that they are<br />
being realistic, and indeed the Cross-Benchers recognise<br />
that something has to be done. I am afraid that a<br />
major factor in the reduced respect that the public<br />
now have for parliamentary institutions—the noble<br />
Lord, Lord MacGregor, made a very passionate reference<br />
to this—is that they think that big money buys influence.<br />
That thread went right through the cross-party agreement
1089 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1090<br />
in the talks convened by Sir Hayden Phillips, and I<br />
believe that it has been the background to all the<br />
contributions from all sides <strong>of</strong> the House this afternoon,<br />
with the disappointing exception <strong>of</strong> the Conservative<br />
Front Bench and the Minister.<br />
It is a ludicrous Aunt Sally to say that allowing a<br />
small tax concession in the form suggested by my<br />
noble friend, with widespread support across the House,<br />
would somehow cause even more concern and angst<br />
among the public. I do not believe that. In fact, it<br />
would give the public the opportunity to put their<br />
money where their mouth is—in a small way,<br />
admittedly—but it would not increase state funding<br />
hugely. If members <strong>of</strong> the Conservative Party are so<br />
anxious about state funding, let them give it up. That<br />
is an obvious way in which they can make a contribution<br />
to the Exchequer. At present, in the course <strong>of</strong> a<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong> the Conservative Party receives in the region<br />
<strong>of</strong> £25 million to £30 million <strong>of</strong> taxpayers’ money,<br />
most <strong>of</strong> which is not available to any other party.<br />
We have had a very useful debate this afternoon<br />
and there has been widespread support for the changes<br />
that we would make. I remind your Lordships that it is<br />
a very simple quid pro quo—a restriction on very large<br />
donations and, in return, the encouragement <strong>of</strong> small<br />
donations through the tax system. I believe that that is<br />
a very appropriate stand for your Lordships to take,<br />
and I wish to test the opinion <strong>of</strong> the House.<br />
5.01 pm<br />
Division on Amendment 38<br />
Contents 71; Not-Contents 210.<br />
Amendment 38 disagreed.<br />
Addington, L.<br />
Allenby <strong>of</strong> Megiddo, V.<br />
Alton <strong>of</strong> Liverpool, L.<br />
Ashdown <strong>of</strong> Norton-sub-<br />
Hamdon, L.<br />
Avebury, L.<br />
Barker, B.<br />
Bonham-Carter <strong>of</strong> Yarnbury,<br />
B.<br />
Bradshaw, L.<br />
Bridges, L.<br />
Burnett, L.<br />
Chidgey, L.<br />
Clement-Jones, L.<br />
Cotter, L.<br />
Craigavon, V.<br />
Dholakia, L.<br />
D’Souza, B.<br />
Dykes, L.<br />
Falkland, V.<br />
Falkner <strong>of</strong> Margravine, B.<br />
Garden <strong>of</strong> Frognal, B.<br />
Glasgow, E.<br />
Goodhart, L.<br />
Greaves, L.<br />
Hamwee, B.<br />
Harries <strong>of</strong> Pentregarth, L.<br />
Harris <strong>of</strong> Richmond, B.<br />
Division No. 1<br />
CONTENTS<br />
Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts,<br />
L.<br />
Hooson, L.<br />
Howe <strong>of</strong> Idlicote, B.<br />
Kirkwood <strong>of</strong> Kirkhope, L.<br />
Lee <strong>of</strong> Trafford, L.<br />
Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill, L.<br />
Linklater <strong>of</strong> Butterstone, B.<br />
Livsey <strong>of</strong> Talgarth, L.<br />
Mackie <strong>of</strong> Benshie, L.<br />
Maclennan <strong>of</strong> Rogart, L.<br />
McNally, L.<br />
Maddock, B.<br />
Mar and Kellie, E.<br />
May <strong>of</strong> Oxford, L.<br />
Methuen, L.<br />
Miller <strong>of</strong> Chilthorne Domer,<br />
B.<br />
Montgomery <strong>of</strong> Alamein, V.<br />
Neuberger, B.<br />
Newby, L.<br />
Northover, B.<br />
O’Neill <strong>of</strong> Bengarve, B.<br />
Pannick, L.<br />
Patel, L.<br />
Razzall, L.<br />
Redesdale, L.<br />
Roberts <strong>of</strong> Llandudno, L.<br />
[Teller]<br />
Rodgers <strong>of</strong> Quarry Bank, L.<br />
Sandwich, E.<br />
Scott <strong>of</strong> Needham Market, B.<br />
Sharp <strong>of</strong> Guildford, B.<br />
Shutt <strong>of</strong> Greetland, L. [Teller]<br />
Steel <strong>of</strong> Aikwood, L.<br />
Sutherland <strong>of</strong> Houndwood, L.<br />
Taverne, L.<br />
Tenby, V.<br />
Thomas <strong>of</strong> Gresford, L.<br />
Adonis, L.<br />
Ahmed, L.<br />
Amos, B.<br />
Anderson <strong>of</strong> Swansea, L.<br />
Andrews, B.<br />
Anelay <strong>of</strong> St Johns, B.<br />
Archer <strong>of</strong> Sandwell, L.<br />
Arran, E.<br />
Astor <strong>of</strong> Hever, L.<br />
Attlee, E.<br />
Bach, L.<br />
Baker <strong>of</strong> Dorking, L.<br />
Barnett, L.<br />
Bassam <strong>of</strong> Brighton, L.<br />
[Teller]<br />
Bates, L.<br />
Berkeley, L.<br />
Bernstein <strong>of</strong> Craigweil, L.<br />
Billingham, B.<br />
Bilston, L.<br />
Borrie, L.<br />
Boyd <strong>of</strong> Duncansby, L.<br />
Brett, L.<br />
Brooke <strong>of</strong> Alverthorpe, L.<br />
Brooke <strong>of</strong> Sutton Mandeville,<br />
L.<br />
Brookman, L.<br />
Buscombe, B.<br />
Carter <strong>of</strong> Coles, L.<br />
Cathcart, E.<br />
Clark <strong>of</strong> Windermere, L.<br />
Clarke <strong>of</strong> Hampstead, L.<br />
Clinton-Davis, L.<br />
Cobbold, L.<br />
Colville <strong>of</strong> Culross, V.<br />
Colwyn, L.<br />
Condon, L.<br />
Cope <strong>of</strong> Berkeley, L.<br />
Corbett <strong>of</strong> Castle Vale, L.<br />
Courtown, E.<br />
Crawley, B.<br />
Crickhowell, L.<br />
Cunningham <strong>of</strong> Felling, L.<br />
Darzi <strong>of</strong> Denham, L.<br />
Davidson <strong>of</strong> Glen Clova, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Abersoch, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Coity, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham, L. [Teller]<br />
De Mauley, L.<br />
Dean <strong>of</strong> Thornton-le-Fylde,<br />
B.<br />
Desai, L.<br />
Dixon-Smith, L.<br />
Donoughue, L.<br />
Eccles <strong>of</strong> Moulton, B.<br />
Elder, L.<br />
Elton, L.<br />
Elystan-Morgan, L.<br />
Erroll, E.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Parkside, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Temple Guiting, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Watford, L.<br />
Falconer <strong>of</strong> Thoroton, L.<br />
Falkender, B.<br />
Farrington <strong>of</strong> Ribbleton, B.<br />
NOT CONTENTS<br />
Thomas <strong>of</strong> Winchester, B.<br />
Tonge, B.<br />
Tord<strong>of</strong>f, L.<br />
Tyler, L.<br />
Walmsley, B.<br />
Walpole, L.<br />
Warnock, B.<br />
Williams <strong>of</strong> Crosby, B.<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Hornsey, B.<br />
Faulkner <strong>of</strong> Worcester, L.<br />
Ferrers, E.<br />
Ford, B.<br />
Fowler, L.<br />
Gale, B.<br />
Geddes, L.<br />
Gibson <strong>of</strong> Market Rasen, B.<br />
Golding, B.<br />
Goudie, B.<br />
Graham <strong>of</strong> Edmonton, L.<br />
Grantchester, L.<br />
Grocott, L.<br />
Hanham, B.<br />
Hannay <strong>of</strong> Chiswick, L.<br />
Hanningfield, L.<br />
Harris <strong>of</strong> Haringey, L.<br />
Haskel, L.<br />
Haskins, L.<br />
Haworth, L.<br />
Henig, B.<br />
Henley, L.<br />
Higgins, L.<br />
Hilton <strong>of</strong> Eggardon, B.<br />
Hollis <strong>of</strong> Heigham, B.<br />
Howarth <strong>of</strong> Newport, L.<br />
Howe, E.<br />
Howe <strong>of</strong> Aberavon, L.<br />
Howie <strong>of</strong> Troon, L.<br />
Hughes <strong>of</strong> Woodside, L.<br />
Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath, L.<br />
Hurd <strong>of</strong> Westwell, L.<br />
Inglewood, L.<br />
Irvine <strong>of</strong> Lairg, L.<br />
James <strong>of</strong> Blackheath, L.<br />
Jay <strong>of</strong> Ewelme, L.<br />
Jay <strong>of</strong> Paddington, B.<br />
J<strong>of</strong>fe, L.<br />
Jones, L.<br />
Jones <strong>of</strong> Whitchurch, B.<br />
Jopling, L.<br />
Kimball, L.<br />
King <strong>of</strong> Bridgwater, L.<br />
King <strong>of</strong> West Bromwich, L.<br />
Kirkhill, L.<br />
Laird, L.<br />
Lamont <strong>of</strong> Lerwick, L.<br />
Lea <strong>of</strong> Crondall, L.<br />
Lipsey, L.<br />
L<strong>of</strong>t<strong>house</strong> <strong>of</strong> Pontefract, L.<br />
Luke, L.<br />
Lyell, L.<br />
McColl <strong>of</strong> Dulwich, L.<br />
McDonagh, B.<br />
Macdonald <strong>of</strong> Tradeston, L.<br />
MacGregor <strong>of</strong> Pulham<br />
Market, L.<br />
McIntosh <strong>of</strong> Haringey, L.<br />
McKenzie <strong>of</strong> Luton, L.<br />
MacLaurin <strong>of</strong> Knebworth, L.<br />
Malloch-Brown, L.<br />
Mar, C.<br />
Marland, L.<br />
Masham <strong>of</strong> Ilton, B.<br />
Massey <strong>of</strong> Darwen, B.<br />
Maxton, L.
1091 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1092<br />
Mayhew <strong>of</strong> Twysden, L.<br />
Monson, L.<br />
Montrose, D.<br />
Moonie, L.<br />
Morgan, L.<br />
Morgan <strong>of</strong> Drefelin, B.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Aberavon, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Handsworth, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Manchester, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Yardley, B.<br />
Morrow, L.<br />
Moser, L.<br />
Neill <strong>of</strong> Bladen, L.<br />
Noakes, B.<br />
Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth, L.<br />
O’Cathain, B.<br />
O’Neill <strong>of</strong> Clackmannan, L.<br />
Onslow, E.<br />
Palmer, L.<br />
Parekh, L.<br />
Patel <strong>of</strong> Blackburn, L.<br />
Patten, L.<br />
Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch, L.<br />
Pendry, L.<br />
Perry <strong>of</strong> Southwark, B.<br />
Plant <strong>of</strong> Highfield, L.<br />
Plumb, L.<br />
Prosser, B.<br />
Puttnam, L.<br />
Quin, B.<br />
Ramsay <strong>of</strong> Cartvale, B.<br />
Reay, L.<br />
Rendell <strong>of</strong> Babergh, B.<br />
Renton <strong>of</strong> Mount Harry, L.<br />
Richard, L.<br />
Rogan, L.<br />
Rooker, L.<br />
Rosser, L.<br />
Rowe-Beddoe, L.<br />
Rowlands, L.<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon, B.<br />
Ryder <strong>of</strong> Wensum, L.<br />
5.14 pm<br />
Amendment 39 not moved.<br />
Scotland <strong>of</strong> Asthal, B.<br />
Seccombe, B.<br />
Selborne, E.<br />
Selsdon, L.<br />
Sewel, L.<br />
Sharples, B.<br />
Sheldon, L.<br />
Shephard <strong>of</strong> Northwold, B.<br />
Shrewsbury, E.<br />
Simon, V.<br />
Skelmersdale, L.<br />
Snape, L.<br />
Soley, L.<br />
Soulsby <strong>of</strong> Swaffham Prior, L.<br />
Stewartby, L.<br />
Stoddart <strong>of</strong> Swindon, L.<br />
Strathclyde, L.<br />
Symons <strong>of</strong> Vernham Dean, B.<br />
Taylor <strong>of</strong> Bolton, B.<br />
Taylor <strong>of</strong> Holbeach, L.<br />
Tebbit, L.<br />
Temple-Morris, L.<br />
Thornton, B.<br />
Tomlinson, L.<br />
Trenchard, V.<br />
Trimble, L.<br />
Trumpington, B.<br />
Tugendhat, L.<br />
Tunnicliffe, L.<br />
Turner <strong>of</strong> Camden, B.<br />
Uddin, B.<br />
Warwick <strong>of</strong> Undercliffe, B.<br />
Watson <strong>of</strong> Invergowrie, L.<br />
West <strong>of</strong> Spithead, L.<br />
Whitaker, B.<br />
Whitty, L.<br />
Wilcox, B.<br />
Wilkins, B.<br />
Williams <strong>of</strong> Elvel, L.<br />
Williamson <strong>of</strong> Horton, L.<br />
Woolmer <strong>of</strong> Leeds, L.<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green, L.<br />
Schedule4:Reports <strong>of</strong> gifts received by<br />
unincorporated associations making donations:<br />
Schedule to be inserted into the 2000 Act<br />
Amendments 40 to 63<br />
Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe<br />
40: Schedule 4, page 66, line 20, leave out “donations” and<br />
insert “contributions”<br />
41: Schedule 4, page 66, line 21, leave out “donations” and<br />
insert “political contributions”<br />
42: Schedule 4, page 66, line 24, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
43: Schedule 4, page 66, line 25, leave out “donations” and<br />
insert “contributions”<br />
44: Schedule 4, page 66, line 27, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
45: Schedule 4, page 66, line 28, leave out “donations” and<br />
insert “contributions”<br />
46: Schedule 4, page 66, line 31, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
47: Schedule 4, page 66, leave out lines 32 to 36 and insert—<br />
“(2) An unincorporated association makes a “political<br />
contribution” in any <strong>of</strong> the following cases—<br />
(a) it makes a donation (within the meaning <strong>of</strong> Part 4) to a<br />
registered party;<br />
(b) it makes a loan <strong>of</strong> money to a registered party, or<br />
discharges (to any extent) a liability <strong>of</strong> a registered party,<br />
in pursuance <strong>of</strong> a regulated transaction (within the<br />
meaning <strong>of</strong> Part 4A);<br />
(c) it makes a donation (within the meaning <strong>of</strong> Schedule 7)<br />
to a regulated donee;<br />
(d) it makes a loan <strong>of</strong> money to a regulated donee, or<br />
discharges (to any extent) a liability <strong>of</strong> a regulated<br />
donee, in pursuance <strong>of</strong> a controlled transaction (within<br />
the meaning <strong>of</strong> Schedule 7A);<br />
(e) it makes a donation (within the meaning <strong>of</strong> Schedule 11)<br />
to a recognised third party;<br />
(f) it makes a donation (within the meaning <strong>of</strong> Schedule 15)<br />
to a permitted participant.”<br />
48: Schedule 4, page 67, line 1, leave out “donation” and insert<br />
“contribution”<br />
49: Schedule 4, page 67, line 2, leave out “donation” and insert<br />
“contribution”<br />
50: Schedule 4, page 67, leave out lines 4 to 12<br />
51: Schedule 4, page 67, line 29, at end insert—<br />
“(e) the value <strong>of</strong> a contribution within sub-paragraph (2)(b)<br />
or (d) is the amount <strong>of</strong> money lent or liability<br />
discharged.”<br />
52: Schedule 4, page 67, line 30, after “donation” insert “, or a<br />
sum <strong>of</strong> money lent,”<br />
53: Schedule 4, page 67, line 30, leave out “it” and insert “the<br />
donation or loan”<br />
54: Schedule 4, page 67, line 34, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “political contribution”<br />
55: Schedule 4, page 67, line 38, leave out first “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
56: Schedule 4, page 67, line 38, leave out second “donation”<br />
and insert “contribution”<br />
57: Schedule 4, page 67, line 42, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
58: Schedule 4, page 68, line 2, leave out “donation” and insert<br />
“contribution”<br />
59: Schedule 4, page 68, line 4, leave out “donation” and insert<br />
“contribution”<br />
60: Schedule 4, page 68, line 9, leave out “donation” and insert<br />
“contribution”<br />
61: Schedule 4, page 68, line 13, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
62: Schedule 4, page 68, line 19, leave out “donation” and<br />
insert “contribution”<br />
63: Schedule 4, page 72, line 10, at end insert—<br />
“( ) lends money to another otherwise than on commercial<br />
terms;”<br />
Amendments 40 to 63 agreed.<br />
5.15 pm<br />
Amendment 64<br />
Moved by Lord Goodhart<br />
64: After Schedule 4, insert the following new Schedule—<br />
“SCHEDULE<br />
Tax relief on donations
1093 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1094<br />
1 To obtain tax relief under section (Tax relief on donations),<br />
the conditions set out in paragraph 2 must be satisfied.<br />
2 (1) The individual who made the donation is a permissible<br />
donor.<br />
(2) The registered political party to which the donation is<br />
made is a party which, at the last general election preceding the<br />
donation, had at least two members elected to the House <strong>of</strong><br />
Commons.<br />
(3) Conditions A to F in section 416 <strong>of</strong> the Income Tax Act<br />
2007 (c. 3) (meaning <strong>of</strong> “qualifying donation”) would have been<br />
met if the donations had been made to a charity.<br />
(4) The donor has given a declaration in the manner specified<br />
by regulations made by the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s<br />
Revenue and Customs and containing any information and any<br />
statements required by regulations.<br />
3 Regulations made under paragraph 2(4) may provide for<br />
declarations—<br />
(a) to have effect;<br />
(b) to cease to have effect;<br />
(c) to be treated as never having had effect,<br />
in any circumstances and for any purposes specified by the<br />
regulations.<br />
4 Regulations made under paragraph 2(4) are subject to<br />
annulment pursuant to a resolution <strong>of</strong> the House <strong>of</strong> Commons.<br />
5 Tax relief in relation to donations given by an individual in<br />
any fiscal year may be given only on whichever is the lesser <strong>of</strong>—<br />
(a) the amount <strong>of</strong> donations given by the individual in that<br />
year to which section (Tax relief on donations) applies;<br />
(b) £500.<br />
6 Tax relief shall not be given on higher rate income tax.<br />
7 The amount <strong>of</strong> tax relief (subject to paragraphs 5 and 6)<br />
shall be computed and allocated to the political party to which<br />
the donation was given as if that party was a charity to which<br />
Chapter 2 <strong>of</strong> Part 8 <strong>of</strong> the Income Tax Act 2007 applies.”<br />
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I wish to test the opinion<br />
<strong>of</strong> the House.<br />
5.15 pm<br />
Division on Amendment 64<br />
Contents 83; Not-Contents 129.<br />
Amendment 64 disagreed.<br />
Addington, L. [Teller]<br />
Alton <strong>of</strong> Liverpool, L.<br />
Ashdown <strong>of</strong> Norton-sub-<br />
Hamdon, L.<br />
Avebury, L.<br />
Baker <strong>of</strong> Dorking, L.<br />
Barker, B.<br />
Bonham-Carter <strong>of</strong> Yarnbury,<br />
B.<br />
Bowness, L.<br />
Bradshaw, L.<br />
Bridges, L.<br />
Brooke <strong>of</strong> Sutton Mandeville,<br />
L.<br />
Burnett, L.<br />
Cathcart, E.<br />
Chidgey, L.<br />
Clement-Jones, L.<br />
Cotter, L.<br />
Dholakia, L.<br />
Division No. 2<br />
CONTENTS<br />
Dykes, L.<br />
Elliott <strong>of</strong> Morpeth, L.<br />
Falkland, V.<br />
Falkner <strong>of</strong> Margravine, B.<br />
Garden <strong>of</strong> Frognal, B.<br />
Glasgow, E.<br />
Goodhart, L.<br />
Greaves, L.<br />
Hamwee, B.<br />
Harries <strong>of</strong> Pentregarth, L.<br />
Harris <strong>of</strong> Richmond, B.<br />
Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts,<br />
L.<br />
Hooson, L.<br />
Hurd <strong>of</strong> Westwell, L.<br />
James <strong>of</strong> Blackheath, L.<br />
Kirkwood <strong>of</strong> Kirkhope, L.<br />
Lamont <strong>of</strong> Lerwick, L.<br />
Lee <strong>of</strong> Trafford, L.<br />
Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill, L.<br />
Linklater <strong>of</strong> Butterstone, B.<br />
Livsey <strong>of</strong> Talgarth, L.<br />
MacGregor <strong>of</strong> Pulham<br />
Market, L.<br />
Mackie <strong>of</strong> Benshie, L.<br />
Maclennan <strong>of</strong> Rogart, L.<br />
McNally, L.<br />
Maddock, B.<br />
Marland, L.<br />
Marlesford, L.<br />
Masham <strong>of</strong> Ilton, B.<br />
May <strong>of</strong> Oxford, L.<br />
Methuen, L.<br />
Miller <strong>of</strong> Chilthorne Domer,<br />
B.<br />
Morrow, L.<br />
Neill <strong>of</strong> Bladen, L.<br />
Neuberger, B.<br />
Newby, L.<br />
Nicholson <strong>of</strong> Winterbourne,<br />
B.<br />
Northover, B.<br />
Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth, L.<br />
O’Cathain, B.<br />
Pannick, L.<br />
Amos, B.<br />
Anderson <strong>of</strong> Swansea, L.<br />
Andrews, B.<br />
Archer <strong>of</strong> Sandwell, L.<br />
Bach, L.<br />
Barnett, L.<br />
Bassam <strong>of</strong> Brighton, L.<br />
[Teller]<br />
Berkeley, L.<br />
Bernstein <strong>of</strong> Craigweil, L.<br />
Bew, L.<br />
Bilston, L.<br />
Borrie, L.<br />
Boyd <strong>of</strong> Duncansby, L.<br />
Brett, L.<br />
Brooke <strong>of</strong> Alverthorpe, L.<br />
Brookman, L.<br />
Carter <strong>of</strong> Coles, L.<br />
Clark <strong>of</strong> Windermere, L.<br />
Clarke <strong>of</strong> Hampstead, L.<br />
Clinton-Davis, L.<br />
Cobbold, L.<br />
Colville <strong>of</strong> Culross, V.<br />
Condon, L.<br />
Corbett <strong>of</strong> Castle Vale, L.<br />
Craigavon, V.<br />
Crawley, B.<br />
Davidson <strong>of</strong> Glen Clova, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Abersoch, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Coity, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham, L. [Teller]<br />
Dean <strong>of</strong> Thornton-le-Fylde,<br />
B.<br />
Desai, L.<br />
D’Souza, B.<br />
Elder, L.<br />
Elystan-Morgan, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Parkside, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Temple Guiting, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Watford, L.<br />
Falconer <strong>of</strong> Thoroton, L.<br />
Falkender, B.<br />
Farrington <strong>of</strong> Ribbleton, B.<br />
Faulkner <strong>of</strong> Worcester, L.<br />
Ford, B.<br />
Gale, B.<br />
Gibson <strong>of</strong> Market Rasen, B.<br />
Golding, B.<br />
Goudie, B.<br />
Grantchester, L.<br />
NOT CONTENTS<br />
Plumb, L.<br />
Razzall, L.<br />
Redesdale, L.<br />
Roberts <strong>of</strong> Llandudno, L.<br />
Rodgers <strong>of</strong> Quarry Bank, L.<br />
Sandwich, E.<br />
Scott <strong>of</strong> Needham Market, B.<br />
Sharp <strong>of</strong> Guildford, B.<br />
Shrewsbury, E.<br />
Shutt <strong>of</strong> Greetland, L. [Teller]<br />
Steel <strong>of</strong> Aikwood, L.<br />
Stewartby, L.<br />
Stoddart <strong>of</strong> Swindon, L.<br />
Taverne, L.<br />
Tebbit, L.<br />
Tenby, V.<br />
Thomas <strong>of</strong> Gresford, L.<br />
Thomas <strong>of</strong> Winchester, B.<br />
Tonge, B.<br />
Tord<strong>of</strong>f, L.<br />
Tugendhat, L.<br />
Tyler, L.<br />
Walmsley, B.<br />
Walpole, L.<br />
Williams <strong>of</strong> Crosby, B.<br />
Greenway, L.<br />
Grocott, L.<br />
Hannay <strong>of</strong> Chiswick, L.<br />
Harris <strong>of</strong> Haringey, L.<br />
Haskel, L.<br />
Haskins, L.<br />
Haworth, L.<br />
Henig, B.<br />
Hilton <strong>of</strong> Eggardon, B.<br />
Hollis <strong>of</strong> Heigham, B.<br />
Howarth <strong>of</strong> Newport, L.<br />
Howie <strong>of</strong> Troon, L.<br />
Hughes <strong>of</strong> Woodside, L.<br />
Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath, L.<br />
Irvine <strong>of</strong> Lairg, L.<br />
Jay <strong>of</strong> Ewelme, L.<br />
Jay <strong>of</strong> Paddington, B.<br />
J<strong>of</strong>fe, L.<br />
Jones, L.<br />
Jones <strong>of</strong> Whitchurch, B.<br />
King <strong>of</strong> West Bromwich, L.<br />
Kirkhill, L.<br />
Laird, L.<br />
Lea <strong>of</strong> Crondall, L.<br />
L<strong>of</strong>t<strong>house</strong> <strong>of</strong> Pontefract, L.<br />
McDonagh, B.<br />
Macdonald <strong>of</strong> Tradeston, L.<br />
McIntosh <strong>of</strong> Haringey, L.<br />
McKenzie <strong>of</strong> Luton, L.<br />
Malloch-Brown, L.<br />
Mar, C.<br />
Massey <strong>of</strong> Darwen, B.<br />
Maxton, L.<br />
Montgomery <strong>of</strong> Alamein, V.<br />
Moonie, L.<br />
Morgan, L.<br />
Morgan <strong>of</strong> Drefelin, B.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Aberavon, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Handsworth, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Manchester, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Yardley, B.<br />
O’Neill <strong>of</strong> Clackmannan, L.<br />
Parekh, L.<br />
Patel, L.<br />
Patel <strong>of</strong> Blackburn, L.<br />
Pendry, L.<br />
Prosser, B.<br />
Quin, B.<br />
Ramsay <strong>of</strong> Cartvale, B.<br />
Rea, L.
1095 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1096<br />
Rendell <strong>of</strong> Babergh, B.<br />
Robertson <strong>of</strong> Port Ellen, L.<br />
Rogan, L.<br />
Rooker, L.<br />
Rosser, L.<br />
Rowlands, L.<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon, B.<br />
St. John <strong>of</strong> Bletso, L.<br />
Scotland <strong>of</strong> Asthal, B.<br />
Simon, V.<br />
Snape, L.<br />
Soley, L.<br />
Sutherland <strong>of</strong> Houndwood, L.<br />
Symons <strong>of</strong> Vernham Dean, B.<br />
Taylor <strong>of</strong> Bolton, B.<br />
Temple-Morris, L.<br />
5.25 pm<br />
Amendment 66 not moved.<br />
Amendment 67<br />
Moved by Lord Tyler<br />
Thornton, B.<br />
Tomlinson, L.<br />
Tunnicliffe, L.<br />
Turner <strong>of</strong> Camden, B.<br />
Uddin, B.<br />
Vadera, B.<br />
Warwick <strong>of</strong> Undercliffe, B.<br />
Watson <strong>of</strong> Invergowrie, L.<br />
West <strong>of</strong> Spithead, L.<br />
Whitaker, B.<br />
Whitty, L.<br />
Wilkins, B.<br />
Williams <strong>of</strong> Elvel, L.<br />
Woolmer <strong>of</strong> Leeds, L.<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green, L.<br />
67: After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“National spending limit<br />
In the Representation <strong>of</strong> the People Act 1983 (c. 2), after<br />
section 75A there is inserted—<br />
“75B National spending limit<br />
(1) A registered political party may spend in total, including<br />
expenditure by its national, regional, local or other organs, no<br />
more than £100 million on qualifying expenditure in the period <strong>of</strong><br />
61 months following a general election.<br />
(2) If more than one general election occurs within 61 months<br />
following the previous general election, the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State<br />
may by order increase the sums referred to in subsection (1) by<br />
any appropriate amount.<br />
(3) Before making an order under subsection (2), the Secretary<br />
<strong>of</strong> State shall consult the Electoral Commission.<br />
(4) An order under subsection (2) must be laid before, and<br />
approved by a resolution <strong>of</strong>, both Houses <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>.””<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, we now turn to the discussions<br />
that have taken place over many years about constraint<br />
on spending by political parties at both the national<br />
and the local levels. In case the Minister feels that this<br />
is not a relevant or topical issue, perhaps I may refer to<br />
the fact that today UNISON, Britain’s second largest<br />
union, has decided not to make any further contributions<br />
to the Labour Party for the time being. Therefore,<br />
constraint on expenditure by political parties may be<br />
more relevant than it was just a few hours ago. Perhaps<br />
I should also remind the Minister that, in the last three<br />
months recorded by the Electoral Commission, Labour<br />
managed to raise £2.8 million but the Conservatives<br />
raised £4 million. The Minister may like to comment<br />
on that discrepancy and think again about whether<br />
implementation <strong>of</strong> the agreements arrived at during<br />
the cross-party talks under the auspices <strong>of</strong> Sir Hayden<br />
Phillips may be more appropriate.<br />
Amendments 67 to 73 would, in effect, all implement<br />
the concerns and proposals discussed at such length<br />
by the Hayden Phillips team. Although spending limits<br />
were debated in Grand Committee, the Minister will<br />
acknowledge that we have responded in these amendments<br />
to some <strong>of</strong> the criticisms made during that process. We<br />
have returned to the amendments proposed in the<br />
other place, which more closely reflect the Hayden<br />
Phillips proposals. The amendments differ in only one<br />
respect: the spending limit that we suggest over a<br />
period is £100 million, rather than the £150 million in<br />
the Hayden Phillips discussions. That reflects some <strong>of</strong><br />
the anxieties that have been expressed—not least in<br />
the previous debate by the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby,<br />
who spoke from pr<strong>of</strong>essional experience <strong>of</strong> the marketing<br />
and advertising industry—about how much wastage<br />
takes place. We believe that it would be reasonable to<br />
think <strong>of</strong> a more modest target, which would also meet<br />
some <strong>of</strong> the anxieties <strong>of</strong> the public.<br />
I do not propose going through all the specifics <strong>of</strong><br />
the Hayden Phillips proposals, which are directly reflected<br />
in the amendments before your Lordships’ House.<br />
However, I should like briefly to refer to the conclusions<br />
<strong>of</strong> that team, which I again remind the House reflected<br />
the anxieties, concerns and intentions <strong>of</strong> all three<br />
parties and for which, at the time, there was explicit<br />
support not only in the Hayden Phillips team but also<br />
in the House <strong>of</strong> Commons. Mr Maude, whose comments<br />
I referred to in the previous debate and will not repeat<br />
now, was absolutely explicit that the recommendations<br />
should be incorporated as soon as possible, while in<br />
exchanges during Prime Minister’s Questions in<br />
December 2007 the Prime Minister and the leader <strong>of</strong><br />
the Conservative Party also specifically endorsed the<br />
proposal that there should be limits on expenditure.<br />
In his summary, Sir Hayden Phillips states:<br />
“I believe there is general agreement that: expenditure on<br />
general election campaigns has progressively grown and should<br />
now be reduced in line with a new spending control regime to be<br />
agreed between the parties; and controls on expenditure by all<br />
third parties should be strengthened … This chapter has described<br />
the options available to the parties in crafting new controls on<br />
spending. To reach a lasting agreement, there needs to be a<br />
focused discussion on four key issues: the period over which<br />
spending should be limited; the categories <strong>of</strong> spending which<br />
should be limited; the geographical scope <strong>of</strong> the limits on spending;<br />
and, in the light <strong>of</strong> the nature <strong>of</strong> an agreed scheme, the amount by<br />
which spending should be reduced. But it is clear to me that<br />
progress must be made on this point and that a new approach to<br />
curbing expenditure is necessary. A comprehensive agreement on<br />
party funding should, at a minimum, include within it measures<br />
to return to the overall rise in party spending to the trend line as it<br />
was before the spike in spending prior to the 2005 general<br />
election”.<br />
5.30 pm<br />
I turn now to a specific issue that again we have<br />
modified somewhat from the proposals we put to the<br />
Grand Committee; it relates to permissible expenditure.<br />
We are clear that at the moment there is a temptation<br />
for national parties effectively to interfere with constituency<br />
campaigns in a way that is contrary to all the intentions<br />
and legislation going right back to the 1883 Act. That<br />
temptation relates to specific approaches made to<br />
individual electors on behalf <strong>of</strong> a national campaign<br />
and seeks effectively to undermine what is going on in<br />
the individual constituency.<br />
Many <strong>of</strong> us who took part in the Grand Committee<br />
proceedings have been candidates at various stages. I<br />
added up the number <strong>of</strong> occasions on which I have<br />
been a candidate for a county or general election and<br />
it is rather a large number, but on every occasion my<br />
agent was able to say to me—others will have had this<br />
experience—“If you go over the expenditure limit that
1097 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1098<br />
has been imposed on this constituency, you as the<br />
candidate or I as the agent will be in court”. It was laid<br />
down absolutely and precisely that those who fought a<br />
constituency campaign should bear the full legal<br />
responsibility for all the money spent on promoting<br />
the candidature.<br />
However, by means <strong>of</strong> mailshots directed at<br />
individuals—let alone all the other material that can<br />
come from a national headquarters—a principle that<br />
has been in place for more than a century has been<br />
effectively undermined. Therefore, we have included a<br />
specific requirement in these amendments that, where<br />
national expenditure takes place to promote, effectively,<br />
a candidate and his or her party within a constituency<br />
directly related to an individual elector’s response, that<br />
should be taken into account in relation to the limits<br />
on expenditure at the local level. We understand that<br />
this is difficult where, for example, billboards are used;<br />
in Chester, for example, it might be said that billboards<br />
apply to the whole <strong>of</strong> Cheshire, because people go in<br />
and out <strong>of</strong> the city. However, where unsolicited mail is<br />
sent to an individual elector, that undermines what is<br />
happening at the local level and the responsibility <strong>of</strong><br />
the candidate and his or her agent to look after very<br />
precisely what expenditure is made on behalf <strong>of</strong> that<br />
candidate. That is included in the eligible expenditure<br />
categories within this section.<br />
I do not need to say much more at this point. There<br />
has been considerable discussion at all stages <strong>of</strong> the<br />
process through your Lordships’ House and some<br />
discussion in the other place, but I plead with the<br />
Minister to take this seriously. Indeed, perhaps on this<br />
occasion he might be permitted a little bit <strong>of</strong> a partisan<br />
approach, as it is his party that is suffering most from<br />
this attempt to get around the law on the way in which<br />
expenditure is advanced.<br />
It has also been the experience in recent years that<br />
expenditure during the three weeks or so <strong>of</strong> the campaign<br />
is but part <strong>of</strong> the total campaign expenditure. That<br />
has been the cause <strong>of</strong> much concern and controversy,<br />
certainly in the analysis undertaken by Mr Peter Bradley,<br />
the former Member for the Wrekin, who was the<br />
unfortunate victim <strong>of</strong> a huge amount <strong>of</strong> money being<br />
spent in his constituency on behalf <strong>of</strong> his opponent<br />
before the dissolution <strong>of</strong> the last <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
This is an important issue. There has been considerable<br />
agreement across the parties, with all three leaders<br />
agreeing that something needs to be done on this<br />
score. I hope that we will not have yet another example<br />
<strong>of</strong> the St Augustine syndrome: let us all be virtuous,<br />
but not yet. I beg to move.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, these amendments are in the<br />
same vein as the previous group that we discussed. I<br />
can therefore keep my comments fairly brief, because<br />
most <strong>of</strong> the points have been covered.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to being virtuous,<br />
but not yet. He might say that to his own party on the<br />
question <strong>of</strong> the donation <strong>of</strong> £2.4 million. This is a<br />
germane point and the people watching this debate or<br />
reading it in Hansard need to have it placed in context.<br />
It was a significant donation from a foreign national, a<br />
fugitive from justice in the UK, which was made to the<br />
Liberal Democrats, who refuse to repay it. If the<br />
Liberal Democrats feel so passionately about being<br />
virtuous, why not repay it? If the noble Lord will make<br />
that pledge I shall happily give way to him in order<br />
that he may do so.<br />
My real point on spending preferences is that in a<br />
fair and democratic situation we need to have a level<br />
playing field. However, that level playing field—I alluded<br />
to this in my previous comments—has been distorted<br />
by the amount <strong>of</strong> public money that has been poured<br />
into constituencies. The <strong>of</strong>fice costs allowance, which I<br />
mentioned, and the communications allowance could<br />
amount to something in the region <strong>of</strong> £100,000 per<br />
year, or £500,000 during the lifetime <strong>of</strong> a <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
That money is put in by the incumbent and is in<br />
addition to all the benefits and opportunities that he<br />
or she has <strong>of</strong> writing letters and access to the press.<br />
Lord Greaves: My Lords, the noble Lord seems to<br />
be repeating what he said in the debate on the previous<br />
group. Regardless <strong>of</strong> what one thinks about the £10,000<br />
a year communications allowance—I would be in favour<br />
<strong>of</strong> scrapping it—does he really believe that there is a<br />
proper comparison between the £10,000 per year<br />
communications allowance that an MP receives and<br />
the much larger amounts <strong>of</strong> money with which the<br />
Conservative Party is swamping some constituencies?<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, the direct answer to the<br />
question is yes, I do think that there is a comparison.<br />
That is why I am making the case.<br />
Lord Greaves: My Lords, does the noble Lord,<br />
therefore, not think that the Conservatives ought to be<br />
matching that £10,000 with £10,000 <strong>of</strong> their own<br />
money and not a penny more?<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, I was intending to go on to<br />
talk about all the additional benefits that the incumbent<br />
has in contesting an election. If the noble Lord is so<br />
passionate about limiting the amount <strong>of</strong> money that<br />
can fund campaigns, I think, having been around a<br />
few campaigns myself, not least by-election campaigns,<br />
that the Liberal Democrats could take the lead and<br />
show their virtue by imposing a restraint now on the<br />
amount <strong>of</strong> funds that they are going to put into the<br />
Norwich North by-election. They could do that if<br />
they really wanted to take the big money out <strong>of</strong><br />
politics.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I quote from the<br />
Companion:<br />
“A member <strong>of</strong> the House who is speaking may be interrupted<br />
with a brief question for clarification. Giving way accords with<br />
the traditions and customary courtesy <strong>of</strong> the House ... Lengthy or<br />
frequent interventions should not be made, even with the consent<br />
<strong>of</strong> the member speaking”.<br />
We are on Report.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, I will humbly continue the<br />
debate. I recognise the rules <strong>of</strong> the House and would<br />
not want to trespass on them.<br />
I was talking about the amount <strong>of</strong> money that is<br />
going into elections and the need for a spending cap.<br />
This is the point that my right honourable friend
1099 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1100<br />
[LORD BATES]<br />
David Cameron has made in his personal pledge: an<br />
incoming Conservative Government would abolish<br />
the communications allowance as a first step and a<br />
gesture in that direction. We would seek to reduce the<br />
cost <strong>of</strong> politics and the size <strong>of</strong> the House <strong>of</strong> Commons.<br />
He has put his finger on the national mood at the<br />
moment, which is not inclined to put one penny more<br />
towards the political process in these straitened times<br />
but wants to see the system managed much more<br />
efficiently. It is up to the political parties, through<br />
interparty dialogue, to come up with ways in which<br />
that can be achieved.<br />
I would like to make a couple <strong>of</strong> other points about<br />
expenditure limits. There are many other forms <strong>of</strong><br />
support that political parties receive from the public<br />
purse, a point that was raised in the Neill <strong>report</strong> and<br />
was touched on by Sir Hayden Phillips in his review,<br />
where he pointed out the value <strong>of</strong> freepost mailings <strong>of</strong><br />
manifestos at election time and <strong>of</strong> political election<br />
broadcasts. Significant amounts <strong>of</strong> funding are there<br />
for the incumbent.<br />
We are not saying that there is not a problem; big<br />
money—I use the term again with no hesitation—needs<br />
to be taken out <strong>of</strong> politics. “Big money” refers not<br />
only to trade unions and major wealthy individuals<br />
but to the public purse as well. Some steps have been<br />
taken and it is worth putting on the record some <strong>of</strong> the<br />
progress that has been made in relation to national<br />
limits. We have just experienced a European election<br />
that had a national limit on expenditure. That was a<br />
good exercise and a good discipline to impose.<br />
The very Bill that we are talking about came forward<br />
with a limitation on pre-candidacy election expenses<br />
for certain general elections. It introduces a limit,<br />
which is a step in the right direction, as it acknowledges<br />
that we have to find ways <strong>of</strong> reducing the amount <strong>of</strong><br />
funding that is going into constituencies. Section 18<br />
talks about a system <strong>of</strong> limiting the amount <strong>of</strong> money<br />
expended, kicking in after the 55th month <strong>of</strong> a <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
However, there is an important corollary to the<br />
point about the limitations on pre-election expenses<br />
under the Bill. I would be grateful if the Minister<br />
could put some additional remarks on the record<br />
about this. The understanding was that that would be<br />
matched by a limitation <strong>of</strong> the communications allowance<br />
used during that period by Members in the other place<br />
in their constituencies. It seems only right and fair that<br />
any limit that applied to donation income should be<br />
matched by a gesture from the incumbent Members in<br />
limiting the amount that is spent through the<br />
communications allowance. Various statements have<br />
been made claiming that such a statutory instrument<br />
or convention would be in place by the time the Bill<br />
received Royal Assent. It would be good to hear that<br />
this is still very much the Government’s intention. I<br />
recognise the intention behind the amendments but,<br />
for the reasons that I have outlined, we do not want to<br />
support them at this stage.<br />
5.45 pm<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, this group <strong>of</strong> proposed<br />
amendments seeks to introduce a radical change in the<br />
regulation <strong>of</strong> political expenditure in this country. I<br />
pay tribute the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and the, alas,<br />
not present noble Lord, Lord Rennard—whom we<br />
hope is getting better—for their passion and commitment<br />
to this particular point about national spend and<br />
constituency spend. I am unable to accept the<br />
amendments, but I hope that what I have to say will go<br />
a little way towards making the noble Lord realise that<br />
we want to move forward on this.<br />
I will not go through the amendments one by one.<br />
The noble Lord did not do so either. We recognise the<br />
broad shape <strong>of</strong> the amendments from Grand Committee.<br />
We are grateful that some rectification has been made<br />
<strong>of</strong> some <strong>of</strong> the problems and deficiencies that were<br />
identified in the previous versions <strong>of</strong> these amendments,<br />
but we have some concerns. For example, Amendment 67<br />
would impose a five-year limit on a party’s spending<br />
but still fails to anticipate the problem <strong>of</strong> parties<br />
saving up the majority <strong>of</strong> their permitted spend until<br />
shortly before an election. In Amendment 68, we are<br />
concerned that smaller parties would face great difficulty<br />
in accurately calculating the level <strong>of</strong> their permitted<br />
spend, given that it cannot be known how many<br />
months will elapse between elections. These are small<br />
points, but I make them in case the noble Lord wants<br />
to deal with them.<br />
The transitional arrangements proposed in<br />
Amendment 70 appear to suggest that a party could<br />
spend 75 per cent <strong>of</strong> the permitted £61 million between<br />
July 2009 and the next election. That is probably a<br />
drafting error, but prescribing any figure in the manner<br />
<strong>of</strong> the amendment would be risky, given that we<br />
cannot know exactly when the election will be.<br />
Amendment 72 would require registered political parties<br />
to <strong>report</strong> annually on their qualifying expenditure<br />
under the proposed new system <strong>of</strong> spending limits,<br />
although it defines expenditure as that found in<br />
Schedule 4A to the 1983 Act. However, that schedule<br />
lists the regulated matters for the candidate’s spending<br />
limit, not the party’s campaign spending limit. That<br />
list <strong>of</strong> regulated matters is to be found in Schedule 8 to<br />
the 2000 Act.<br />
Amendment 71—and here I come to more major<br />
issues—would make two crucial changes to the list <strong>of</strong><br />
regulated matters for candidates’ spending, as set out<br />
in Schedule 4A to the 1983 Act. First, it seeks to add<br />
spending on newsletters or similar publications, which<br />
is by the central party but relates to candidates. Secondly,<br />
it would add market research or canvassing activity to<br />
the list <strong>of</strong> regulated matters. The noble Lord, Lord<br />
Tyler, raised concerns about the current list <strong>of</strong> regulated<br />
matters for the candidate and campaign spending<br />
limits in Grand Committee. Election spending is, <strong>of</strong><br />
course, regulated by separate limits, according to whether<br />
it is by or on behalf <strong>of</strong> a party, or by or on behalf <strong>of</strong> a<br />
candidate. This is clearly an important distinction.<br />
The noble Lord’s concern is that spending by a central<br />
party organisation, which might be specifically aimed<br />
to enhance the electoral prospects <strong>of</strong> an individual<br />
candidate, would not be recorded against that candidate’s<br />
spending limit.<br />
So we understand the point and the noble Lord’s<br />
concern, but we fear that the proposals would introduce<br />
further complexity into what is already a complex area<br />
<strong>of</strong> legislation. We are concerned that they could be
1101 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1102<br />
difficult to understand and operate in practice and<br />
could blur the respective roles and responsibilities <strong>of</strong><br />
the election agent, central party and local party.<br />
In the White Paper that preceded this Bill, the<br />
Government stated that they would assess whether<br />
there is clarity over which expenses count towards the<br />
party campaign and candidate spending limits. We<br />
stated that we would bring forward proposals to update<br />
the lists <strong>of</strong> regulated matters. However, such changes<br />
would be made via secondary legislation rather than<br />
in this Bill.<br />
The Government will consult fully with all the<br />
major political parties and the Electoral Commission<br />
before bringing forward proposals for change. Any<br />
proposals would then be subject to full scrutiny by<br />
both Houses. The concerns that the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Tyler, raises and the changes that he proposes to make<br />
to Schedule 4A would best be addressed during the<br />
course <strong>of</strong> that consultation and those discussions. I<br />
understand that there is due to be a meeting <strong>of</strong> party<br />
administrators and <strong>of</strong>ficials from my department, the<br />
Ministry <strong>of</strong> Justice. This could be a productive issue to<br />
be considered at that meeting, which I believe is due to<br />
be held later this summer.<br />
This is a complex area <strong>of</strong> legislation and any proposal<br />
for change would have to be considered very carefully<br />
if we are to avoid the unintended consequences that<br />
are always a danger <strong>of</strong> introducing changes that have<br />
not been sufficiently considered. I can give no guarantee<br />
that it will be possible to address fully the noble Lord’s<br />
concern, not least as his proposal would be a significant<br />
change and we have concerns about the practical effect<br />
<strong>of</strong> such a step. However, I reassure him that we intend<br />
to look at the lists <strong>of</strong> regulated matters, and to do so<br />
not on a solitary or party basis—although he tempts<br />
me, I shall resist the temptation to be parti pris—but<br />
on a consultative and co-operative basis.<br />
To return to the main thrust <strong>of</strong> the debate, which<br />
we are grateful to the noble Lord for raising, this<br />
group <strong>of</strong> amendments is based, in a broad sense, on<br />
the package <strong>of</strong> recommendations on spending put<br />
forward by Sir Hayden Phillips, although there are<br />
some key differences between Sir Hayden’s suggested<br />
reforms and the amendments before us today. The<br />
noble Lord, Lord Tyler, mentioned the key one. Sir<br />
Hayden proposed that the whole <strong>of</strong> term limit should<br />
be £150 million, including a general election premium<br />
<strong>of</strong> £20 million. Sir Hayden’s proposals for the treatment<br />
<strong>of</strong> smaller parties also differed, and he did not propose<br />
introducing the new controls until after the next general<br />
election. These differences are significant. We are not<br />
considering the Hayden package <strong>of</strong> reforms with these<br />
amendments, but a revised version which has not<br />
come about as the result <strong>of</strong> cross-party talks and<br />
discussion.<br />
We have constantly stated that we broadly support<br />
the approach <strong>of</strong> comprehensive spending limits as<br />
proposed by Sir Hayden. However, we have also made<br />
it clear that there are concerns about how these could<br />
be made to operate effectively in practice. I talked<br />
about a meeting <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>ficials and party administrators.<br />
Such a meeting has not yet been arranged but we will<br />
seek—I give that promise from the Dispatch Box—to<br />
arrange a meeting <strong>of</strong> the type I mentioned to take<br />
place this summer.<br />
We have also made the case—I know that the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Tyler, is not particularly happy with this—that<br />
it is necessary to proceed in this area only on the basis<br />
<strong>of</strong> cross-party consensus. We do not think that we can<br />
introduce fundamental changes to the regulation <strong>of</strong><br />
party funding unless all the main parties are signed up<br />
to the way forward. That requires detailed discussion<br />
between parties and scrutiny <strong>of</strong> any proposals for<br />
change. That is what the Sir Hayden Phillips talks<br />
sought to achieve. Alas, they failed to settle on proposals<br />
that all parties could support.<br />
We have always said that this Bill is not intended to<br />
be the last word on party funding issues. We hope that,<br />
in the long term, cross-party agreement can be achieved.<br />
We do not believe such agreement exists in your Lordships’<br />
House today. For that reason, we do not believe that<br />
this Bill is the correct place to introduce such a system.<br />
I hope the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his<br />
amendments on the basis <strong>of</strong> what I have said in my<br />
reply. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, mentioned the<br />
restriction post-55 months. My right honourable friend<br />
Michael Wills said on Report in another place that<br />
CA would be restricted for the longer regulated period<br />
introduced in Clause 18. That is a matter for the<br />
House <strong>of</strong> Commons to agree, not for the Government.<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister<br />
for the very careful and positive way in which he has<br />
responded to our amendments. I am sorry that his<br />
colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is<br />
not in the Chamber, because he was so effective in<br />
demolishing this argument that everything has to be<br />
agreed by total consensus across the parties. I wonder<br />
what the Minister’s position would be if there was<br />
complete agreement between the Conservative and<br />
Labour Parties on an issue <strong>of</strong> this sort, but the Liberal<br />
Democrats did not agree. Would he still say that there<br />
was consensus, or would he say that the Liberal Democrats<br />
effectively had a veto on any agreement? The danger<br />
with the concept that we can do something in this field<br />
only when everybody is agreed is that we will not make<br />
any serious reforms to our political system at all.<br />
There will always be somebody who does not want to<br />
move. I have to say that we are usually rather more in<br />
advance when it comes to reform. However, this idea<br />
that consensus is essential, and therefore the slowest<br />
mover has a veto, is a dangerous new tendency in<br />
government. I do not see it in any other walk <strong>of</strong> life<br />
where government seeks to interfere or control.<br />
I hope I am not putting words into the Minister’s<br />
mouth, but I think that I can detect from what he is<br />
saying that the Government take very seriously the<br />
sort <strong>of</strong> anxieties and concerns that we have expressed.<br />
He did not say that he is seeking to reconstitute any<br />
cross-party discussions but I hope that it can be read<br />
into his words that he is not giving up on seeking to<br />
achieve some agreement, even if it is not complete,<br />
100 per cent consensus. As he rightly says, his colleagues<br />
in the other place are increasingly anxious about the<br />
failure <strong>of</strong> the present regulations, particularly in terms<br />
<strong>of</strong> qualifying expenditure, to prevent interference on a<br />
scale that has never been experienced before. Not in<br />
the past 100 years has there been such considerable<br />
expenditure by national parties to encourage people to<br />
support local candidates within the constituency. He
1103 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1104<br />
[LORD TYLER]<br />
was very generous in identifying that this was an issue<br />
<strong>of</strong> concern which the Liberal Democrats are not alone<br />
in identifying. He is right that we need in some form or<br />
other to go back to the issues in Schedule 4A, and it<br />
may not be our precise amendments that will be<br />
necessary.<br />
I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, who<br />
is engaged this afternoon and has given her apologies<br />
to me and perhaps also to the Minster, shares our<br />
anxieties on this score. If the Minister is saying—I<br />
think he is, and I hope he will intervene if I have it<br />
wrong—that there may be other ways in which we can<br />
tighten and improve how these categories <strong>of</strong> expenditure<br />
are currently treated, then my colleagues and I very<br />
warmly welcome that. Frankly, however, it is not very<br />
helpful simply to say that there will be an urgent<br />
meeting some time in the summer. That does not<br />
communicate to me the sense <strong>of</strong> urgency that even<br />
this House would feel in giving priority to this important<br />
issue.<br />
The Minister has been generous in saying that these<br />
are matters <strong>of</strong> concern to him and his colleagues in<br />
government. I hope it will be accepted that the issue is<br />
certainly <strong>of</strong> concern to members on different sides <strong>of</strong><br />
the House. It did not sound as though even the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Bates, speaking on behalf <strong>of</strong> the Conservatives,<br />
is really totally satisfied with the lack <strong>of</strong> clarity. In the<br />
mean time, I take at face value precisely what the<br />
Minister has said. I hope we will see some progress,<br />
outwith the discussions on this Bill, before the Summer<br />
Recess. On those terms, I beg leave to withdraw<br />
Amendment 67.<br />
Amendment 67 withdrawn.<br />
Amendments 68 to 73 not moved.<br />
6pm<br />
Amendment 74<br />
Moved by Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth<br />
74: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Abolition <strong>of</strong> the edited electoral register<br />
Following the publication <strong>of</strong> the 2011 edition <strong>of</strong> the edited<br />
version <strong>of</strong> the electoral register, the provisions <strong>of</strong> section 9 <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (c. 41), in<br />
so far as they relate to the edited version <strong>of</strong> the register, shall<br />
cease to have effect, and no further edited versions <strong>of</strong> the register<br />
shall be compiled and published.”<br />
Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth: My Lords, this is the first<br />
amendment I have moved that has been the subject <strong>of</strong><br />
a campaign; I have received a number <strong>of</strong> e-mails<br />
urging me to oppose it. I fear I must disappoint the<br />
correspondents.<br />
The purpose <strong>of</strong> the amendment is to get rid <strong>of</strong> the<br />
edited version <strong>of</strong> the electoral register, though providing<br />
time to do so. In seeking to abolish the edited register,<br />
as I explained in Committee, I am in good company.<br />
Support for abolishing it comes from the Association<br />
<strong>of</strong> Electoral Administrators, the Electoral Commission<br />
and the Information Commissioner. The Thomas-Walport<br />
<strong>report</strong> last year on data sharing recommended that it<br />
be brought to an end, stating,<br />
“we feel that selling the edited register is an unsatisfactory way for<br />
local authorities to treat personal information. It sends a particularly<br />
poor message to the public that personal information collected<br />
for something as vital as participation in the democratic process<br />
can be sold to ‘anyone for any purpose’. And there is a belief that<br />
the sale <strong>of</strong> the electoral register deters some people from registering<br />
at all. We are sympathetic to the strong arguments made by the<br />
Association <strong>of</strong> Electoral Administrators and the Electoral Commission<br />
that the primary purpose <strong>of</strong> the electoral register is for electoral<br />
purposes”.<br />
The arguments for abolishing the edited version<br />
rest on principle and practice. The principled argument<br />
is, to my mind, compelling. Heads <strong>of</strong> <strong>house</strong>holds are<br />
required, by law, each year to complete an electoral<br />
registration form in order for those in the <strong>house</strong>hold<br />
to be registered to vote. That is a fundamental part <strong>of</strong><br />
our democratic process. Yet at the same time they have<br />
to decide whether they wish to have their name withdrawn<br />
from a register that is compiled for sale to any body<br />
that wishes to purchase it. People can exercise their<br />
option to opt out—it is opt-out, rather than opt-in—but<br />
why should they be required, by law, to make such a<br />
determination? It completely sullies the integrity <strong>of</strong><br />
the electoral process. The electoral registration form<br />
should be solely for the purpose <strong>of</strong> compiling the<br />
electoral register. I thus have a principled objection to<br />
using the force <strong>of</strong> law to impose this burden on<br />
citizens.<br />
The practical argument is that the present situation<br />
imposes a major and, to my mind, unnecessary burden<br />
on electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers. They are required to<br />
compile the information and then sell it. They make<br />
no pr<strong>of</strong>it in doing so—rather the reverse. There is no<br />
benefit to the local authority. There is certainly no<br />
benefit to electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers; it has no<br />
relevance to their role. Compiling the edited version <strong>of</strong><br />
the register imposes a major burden. It will become<br />
even more <strong>of</strong> a burden as electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
prepare for the move to individual registration. We<br />
should be facilitating that move, not maintaining a<br />
significant burden. On practical grounds, the case for<br />
getting rid <strong>of</strong> the edited register is thus greater than<br />
ever before.<br />
What are the arguments against? In Grand Committee,<br />
the Minister focused solely on practical arguments.<br />
There was no engagement with the issue <strong>of</strong> principle.<br />
The argument related solely to the benefit for organisations<br />
that purchase the register. Abolishing the edited register<br />
may create problems for them. The Government plan<br />
to consult on the issue.<br />
There are two, related responses to this. First, my<br />
amendment provides for the edited register to cease<br />
after the 2011 edition. There is thus time to prepare,<br />
and indeed to consult. The Government can utilise<br />
their proposed consultation on the best way to ensure<br />
a smooth transition. The principal objections to abolishing<br />
the edited register appear to come from debt collection<br />
agencies that use it to track down debtors who have<br />
moved. Given that 40 per cent <strong>of</strong> electors opt out <strong>of</strong><br />
the register—one suspects that those in debt may be<br />
among them—that strikes me as an inefficient way <strong>of</strong><br />
proceeding. Credit reference agencies already have<br />
access to the full register to check the names <strong>of</strong> people<br />
applying for credit. As the Credit Services Association<br />
points out, it is illogical that the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Justice<br />
supports the continued use <strong>of</strong> the full register by credit
1105 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1106<br />
reference agencies to check the names and addresses<br />
<strong>of</strong> people applying for credit, so helping them to get<br />
into debt, but not for the process <strong>of</strong> recovering sums<br />
borrowed and helping people to get out <strong>of</strong> debt. I am<br />
not against agencies being able to utilise the full register<br />
for that purpose. As the Credit Services Association<br />
quite justifiably points out in its briefing:<br />
“Desired access to the electoral roll by the direct mailing and<br />
marketing industry should not be linked with the completely<br />
different requirements <strong>of</strong> the debt collection industry”.<br />
I concur. I would be content for the agencies to have<br />
access to the full register and would support the<br />
Government in making the necessary adjustments for<br />
that purpose.<br />
Secondly, as my noble friend Lord Bates observed<br />
in Committee, if there is demand for such a product by<br />
direct mailing and marketing bodies, market forces<br />
will take care <strong>of</strong> it. My amendment allows time for the<br />
market to operate. This is clearly something appropriate<br />
to the market and not to misusing statutory provisions<br />
for commercial purposes.<br />
My basic point is straightforward. The process <strong>of</strong><br />
employing the force <strong>of</strong> law to compile the electoral<br />
register should be confined to that task. Electoral<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficers should be allowed to get on with<br />
their tasks as electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers. They are<br />
not, or rather should not be, in the business <strong>of</strong> helping<br />
junk mail companies. Given that the costs <strong>of</strong> compiling<br />
the edited register are not wholly recovered, we are in<br />
effect subsidising commercial concerns. We are doing<br />
so through the use <strong>of</strong> statute, through the use <strong>of</strong> a<br />
provision that is fundamental to the democratic process.<br />
Requiring people to decide whether they wish to remove<br />
their name from the edited register is a misuse <strong>of</strong> that<br />
process. We should restore the integrity <strong>of</strong> our electoral<br />
registration process. We certainly should not use it to<br />
subsidise commercial concerns.<br />
Other democracies manage to survive without such<br />
an edited register. Their economies do not appear to<br />
be undermined by the absence <strong>of</strong> such a register. We<br />
should get rid <strong>of</strong> it. It is in principle objectionable and<br />
it imposes an unnecessary burden. I beg to move.<br />
Lord Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I support<br />
my noble friend. I have been astonished by the amount<br />
<strong>of</strong> paper that I have received on this amendment from<br />
the Finance and Leasing Association, the Credit Services<br />
Association, the Institute <strong>of</strong> Fundraising and the UK<br />
Cards Association opposing him—I also received<br />
something from the Electoral Commission supporting<br />
him—so I listened carefully to what he had to say.<br />
My concerns are primarily threefold. First is the<br />
civil liberties argument. I am always concerned about<br />
information being collected for one purpose and then<br />
being passed on to be used for another, and my<br />
concerns have been increased by the examples given by<br />
my noble friend. The second is what I might describe<br />
as an ecological argument; that is to say, I suspect that<br />
what we are allowing here increases the volume <strong>of</strong><br />
junk mail that travels through all our letterboxes. It is<br />
unnecessary, untidy and wasteful <strong>of</strong> our resources.<br />
The third is what I describe as the economic argument.<br />
I understand that the information is provided at cost,<br />
and I do not see why there should not be an economic<br />
charge for it, which would at least reward the local<br />
authorities and those involved for the expense, trouble<br />
and management time required to provide it. That<br />
does not happen at present; therefore, as my noble<br />
friend pointed out, this is a subsidising <strong>of</strong> the private<br />
sector by the state, which is inherently undesirable.<br />
My civil liberties argument is the most critical. We<br />
should make every effort to ensure that information<br />
collected is used for the purposes for which it is<br />
collected, and not passed to somebody else for use in a<br />
completely different way. Although the Electoral<br />
Commission says that it has worries about the drafting<br />
<strong>of</strong> the amendment, it strongly supports it. And given<br />
that the Minister has so <strong>of</strong>ten in the past prayed in aid<br />
the Electoral Commission when rejecting our arguments,<br />
I hope that on this occasion he will see the logic <strong>of</strong> its<br />
position and ensure that my noble friend’s amendment<br />
is accepted.<br />
Lord Brooke <strong>of</strong> Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, every<br />
possible argument in favour <strong>of</strong> this extremely sensible<br />
proposal has been put forward by my noble friends. By<br />
rising to speak, I give the government Front Bench an<br />
opportunity for information to arrive from the distant<br />
corners <strong>of</strong> the Chamber. I declare that I am a foot<br />
soldier in the army commanded by my noble friend<br />
Lord Norton.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, in Committee my noble<br />
friend Lord Henley and I tabled an amendment that<br />
was similar in effect because we were persuaded by the<br />
argument put forward. The principle was very clear<br />
and has been ably articulated by my noble friend Lord<br />
Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth.<br />
It covered two pieces <strong>of</strong> very persuasive evidence.<br />
The first was the intervention <strong>of</strong> the Information<br />
Commissioner, Richard Thomas, and Mark Walport,<br />
director <strong>of</strong> the medical charity the Wellcome Trust,<br />
who, in their <strong>report</strong> published in July, said:<br />
“The edited register is available for sale to anyone for any<br />
purpose. Its main clients are direct marketing companies and<br />
companies compiling directories”.<br />
The point <strong>of</strong> this amendment is to make it clear that<br />
one must opt into the edited register and thus make it<br />
harder to sell information on to third parties.<br />
In addition, the Local Government Association<br />
carried out a survey <strong>of</strong> electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers,<br />
98 per cent <strong>of</strong> whom wanted a change in the law to<br />
abolish the edited register that councils have to sell to<br />
direct marketing companies, and 88 per cent <strong>of</strong> electoral<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficers believed that the current system<br />
deters people from voting. The survey also found that<br />
councils raise on average only a mere £1,900 from this<br />
source.<br />
Putting together all <strong>of</strong> those arguments that were<br />
so eloquently persuasive, I rose in Grand Committee<br />
and asked whether this was not an opportunity for<br />
a change. I should have realised that although<br />
taking on various groups is perhaps necessary in<br />
the course <strong>of</strong> public life, taking on direct marketing<br />
companies is a recipe for being inundated with e-mails,<br />
paper and representations. They certainly lived up to<br />
the reputation <strong>of</strong> their direct-marketing capabilities by<br />
making representations in between the Grand Committee<br />
and now.
1107 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1108<br />
[LORD BATES]<br />
I totally support the principal point <strong>of</strong> the more<br />
reasoned amendment put forward by my noble friend<br />
Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth which delays implementation<br />
<strong>of</strong> the abolition. Direct mailing companies need to be<br />
aware and acknowledge that there is grave discomfort<br />
at the information being passed on for marketing<br />
purposes. They need to start thinking in the medium<br />
term about finding other sources from which to garner<br />
this information.<br />
However, we keep coming back to timing, which is<br />
everything. At present, the representations that we<br />
have received from the organisations that would be<br />
most affected by this measure have led us to a deeper<br />
concern about the impact on jobs and businesses in<br />
this country. At times <strong>of</strong> recession, when many people<br />
are losing their homes and jobs, and many businesses<br />
are closing for many reasons, we should take almost a<br />
hippocratic oath, which is, “First, do no harm”. My<br />
hesitation is not about the principle <strong>of</strong> the amendment<br />
but that at a practical level we may actually harm an<br />
important part <strong>of</strong> the economy.<br />
Therefore, while we very much support the principle<br />
<strong>of</strong> the amendment and urge the industry to take notice<br />
<strong>of</strong> the remarks made in this House, and to look for<br />
alternatives, we would not be able to <strong>of</strong>fer support<br />
from the Front Bench to my noble friend.<br />
6.15 pm<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, I want to reiterate the point<br />
made by my noble friend Lord Rennard in Grand<br />
Committee when we supported the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth. I quote from the Grand Committee<br />
on 6 May. My noble friend said that,<br />
“the purpose <strong>of</strong> the electoral register is democracy and the<br />
purpose <strong>of</strong> political parties is to promote their messages legitimately.<br />
It is not right that someone who registers to vote should then have<br />
to consider whether they should receive junk mail”.—[Official<br />
Report, 6/5/09; col. GC263.]<br />
The register was never intended for that purpose and<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth, has made a<br />
persuasive case for looking very seriously again at the<br />
whole purpose <strong>of</strong> the electoral register.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth, for his amendment and<br />
for the way in which he has changed some <strong>of</strong> the<br />
wording between Grand Committee and now. It is<br />
right to point out that the Electoral Commission<br />
states:<br />
“While we support the intention <strong>of</strong> Amendment 74 in the<br />
name <strong>of</strong> Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth, which aims to end the compilation<br />
and publication <strong>of</strong> the edited version <strong>of</strong> the electoral register, we<br />
have strong concerns about the drafting <strong>of</strong> the amendment”.<br />
I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson,<br />
will accept that when the Electoral Commission is<br />
absolutely in favour <strong>of</strong> what the Government want, I<br />
quote it; but I also try to do so when it is not. To be<br />
fair, that is exactly the comment that the commission<br />
made on this issue.<br />
Lord Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I did<br />
say in my remarks that the Electoral Commission had<br />
concerns about the drafting <strong>of</strong> the amendment. I was<br />
not trying to say that the commission was 100 per cent<br />
behind it. I think that I made that perfectly clear.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord is being fair;<br />
I hope he thinks that I have been fair in response.<br />
This amendment introduces a new clause, whereby<br />
after December 2011, Section 9 <strong>of</strong> the Political Parties,<br />
Elections and Referendums Act 2000 in relation to the<br />
edited register will no longer have effect, thus preventing<br />
any use after that date <strong>of</strong> the provisions that allow for<br />
the compilation and publication <strong>of</strong> the edited version<br />
<strong>of</strong> the electoral register. EROs would no longer compile<br />
an edited version <strong>of</strong> the register for sale to anyone for<br />
any purpose. Historical versions <strong>of</strong> the edited register,<br />
including the final version published on 1 December<br />
each year, would still be available.<br />
We have been reminded that in July 2008, Dr Mark<br />
Walport and Mr Richard Thomas published their<br />
<strong>report</strong>, the Data Sharing Review, which made a number<br />
<strong>of</strong> recommendations to the Government. In particular,<br />
recommendation 19 called for the edited version <strong>of</strong><br />
the register to be abolished. We indicated that we<br />
would consult on this proposal and that remains our<br />
intention.<br />
The Government clearly understand the concerns<br />
around the sale <strong>of</strong> personal details through the supply<br />
<strong>of</strong> the edited register. As my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe<br />
stated in Grand Committee, before we can consider<br />
taking forward recommendation 19 there is a need to<br />
establish how removing the provisions would impact<br />
on the UK economy, businesses, charities and the<br />
general public. Indeed, noble Lords may be interested<br />
to hear that evidence to date indicates that a wide<br />
variety <strong>of</strong> organisations use the edited register and<br />
there could be an economic impact—even a significant<br />
economic impact—if it were no longer available for<br />
sale. For example, the direct-marketing industry has<br />
indicated that it would be hard hit if the edited register<br />
were abolished. It is worth pointing out that direct<br />
mail is worth £8.6 billion to the UK economy and<br />
accounts for 182,000 jobs.<br />
We must not neglect the very real potential impact<br />
on charities. They are <strong>of</strong> course suffering, as are<br />
businesses, in the current economic climate. Direct<br />
mail remains a significant form <strong>of</strong> direct marketing for<br />
charities. The Institute <strong>of</strong> Fundraising has told us that<br />
it relies on the edited register for this purpose. A piece<br />
<strong>of</strong> research was carried out by nfpSynergy in 2008.<br />
Based on the responses from more than 100 charities,<br />
the level <strong>of</strong> income generated from existing donors—those<br />
acquired through direct mail—sits at around an average<br />
<strong>of</strong> 27 per cent <strong>of</strong> the charities’ total income. Charities<br />
would face poorer quality direct marketing lists and<br />
lower response rates if the edited electoral register was<br />
no longer available for sale. If charities are unable to<br />
verify addresses accurately, there is more chance <strong>of</strong><br />
mail being addressed wrongly, which could lead to a<br />
reduction in the inclination <strong>of</strong> potential donors to<br />
donate. We think other impacts need to be taken into<br />
account.<br />
In the absence <strong>of</strong> the edited register, direct mailing<br />
organisations may rely on out-<strong>of</strong>-date information,<br />
thus increasing the risk <strong>of</strong> wrongly addressed<br />
correspondence. Direct marketing companies may start<br />
to rely on more intrusive methods <strong>of</strong> marketing, such<br />
as cold calling. The Royal Mail benefits substantially<br />
from income from advertising mail. Out <strong>of</strong> a £7 billion
1109 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1110<br />
a year turnover, £1.7 billion represents delivering and<br />
advertising mail to the Royal Mail. This might be<br />
impacted. Those are powerful arguments, particularly<br />
in the economic times we are living in.<br />
Having said all that, we accept that there are strong<br />
principled arguments in favour <strong>of</strong> abolishing the edited<br />
register. We are sympathetic to those who argue on<br />
principle, as does the noble Lord who moved the<br />
amendment, that data collected for electoral purposes<br />
should not be sold on for commercial purposes. We<br />
are also concerned that the existence <strong>of</strong> the edited<br />
register may put some people <strong>of</strong>f registering to vote.<br />
That runs contrary to our programme <strong>of</strong> work to<br />
bolster registration ahead <strong>of</strong> the introduction <strong>of</strong> individual<br />
registration. It is something we wish to consider carefully.<br />
While we have collected some evidence to date, a<br />
full consultation would allow us to go out to a wider<br />
audience, including businesses, charities and the public.<br />
We feel that this would enable us to build up a firmer<br />
evidence base and better understand the nature <strong>of</strong> the<br />
impact <strong>of</strong> abolishing the edited register. It is our<br />
intention to conduct a consultation before the Summer<br />
Recess in order to build a firmer evidence base about<br />
the advantages and disadvantages <strong>of</strong> the edited register<br />
and to consider the way forward on the basis <strong>of</strong> the<br />
responses received.<br />
I should like to emphasise that an amendment to<br />
this Bill is not the only legislative mechanism, in our<br />
view, by which the provisions for the edited register<br />
may be removed. The edited register exists because <strong>of</strong><br />
provision in secondary legislation, made under paragraph<br />
10(1) <strong>of</strong> Schedule 2 to the Representation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
People Act 1983. There is no requirement that secondary<br />
legislation should include provision about an edited<br />
register. Accordingly, our argument is that it would be<br />
possible to remove the provision for the edited register<br />
by using existing powers to amend secondary legislation,<br />
if that was deemed appropriate.<br />
Therefore, it would be open to the Government to<br />
use this mechanism to remove the edited register if,<br />
following consultation, it became evident that that<br />
was the best way forward. That would still leave the<br />
power to create the edited register again on the statute<br />
book. Nevertheless, it might achieve the benefits that<br />
noble Lords describe and would be a more flexible<br />
approach. This would allow us to have the benefit <strong>of</strong><br />
fully considering the outcome <strong>of</strong> the consultation<br />
before taking further steps. Notwithstanding our sympathy<br />
for the arguments against the edited register, this<br />
should be the preferred approach and proper process<br />
for making this informed policy decision about changes<br />
to our system <strong>of</strong> electoral administration. I am not<br />
making any commitments on behalf <strong>of</strong> the Government,<br />
as I would not wish to pre-empt the outcome <strong>of</strong> any<br />
consultation. I mention this solely to emphasise that<br />
this Bill may not be the only mechanism by which the<br />
provisions relating to the edited register may be amended.<br />
I hope that those who support the amendment<br />
might give careful consideration to the impact <strong>of</strong><br />
accepting it. I repeat that, in principle, we understand<br />
the motivation behind the amendment, but we argue<br />
that it would not be appropriate to abolish the edited<br />
register via an amendment to this Bill before we had<br />
conducted a public consultation in full. The noble<br />
Lord will take whatever course he thinks best. However,<br />
I hope that some <strong>of</strong> the arguments that I have tried to<br />
employ might gave him some food for thought.<br />
Lord Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth: My Lords, I am grateful to<br />
all those who have spoken. In addition to the bodies I<br />
mentioned that support abolition, there was cross-party<br />
support for it in Grand Committee. I am very grateful<br />
for this afternoon’s expression <strong>of</strong> support from my<br />
noble friends Lord Hodgson and Lord Brooke and the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Tyler.<br />
I am grateful for the Minister’s response. It came<br />
more towards meeting the point <strong>of</strong> principle this time<br />
rather than relying solely on the practical point. I have<br />
two concerns about what he said. He has repeated the<br />
point that the Government propose to consult. They<br />
have been proposing to consult for some time. The<br />
Government could have already had the consultation<br />
exercise and got the responses by now. There does not<br />
appear to be any great urgency on the part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Government.<br />
That brings me to the second point. The Minister<br />
has said, quite rightly, that one could get rid <strong>of</strong> edited<br />
registers through existing legislation; the provisions<br />
are there. He said that that is the more flexible approach.<br />
My concern is that it is flexibility in favour <strong>of</strong> doing<br />
nothing; that would be my worry. I feel that there is a<br />
need for something to be locked in to ensure that there<br />
is action. I think ultimately the issue <strong>of</strong> principle is<br />
paramount.<br />
I will reflect on what the Minister has said. However,<br />
my greatest concern is, as my noble friend Lord Hodgson<br />
said, the concern expressed by the Electoral Commission<br />
in relation to drafting. I want to reflect on that.<br />
However, I will reflect on what the Minister has said<br />
and consider whether to return to the issue at Third<br />
Reading. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the<br />
amendment.<br />
Amendment 74 withdrawn.<br />
Amendment 75 not moved.<br />
Amendment 76<br />
Moved by Lord Tyler<br />
76: Clause 21, leave out Clause 21<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, this is an important issue<br />
not least because, as yet, Members <strong>of</strong> the other place<br />
have had no debate on it. Those who were present at<br />
Second Reading, as well as those who have taken part<br />
in the discussions in Grand Committee, will recall that<br />
this is the question <strong>of</strong> the exclusion from the ballot<br />
paper <strong>of</strong> the candidates’ addresses. By some special<br />
arrangement, this was put to the other place without<br />
any debate, out <strong>of</strong> sequence and not in the group to<br />
which it related. I need go no further.<br />
There is an important principle here, which is similar<br />
to the principle that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-<br />
Savours, enunciated on Monday, in relation to the<br />
amendment that we had both put before the House.<br />
This is an issue that the House <strong>of</strong> Commons should
1111 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1112<br />
[LORD TYLER]<br />
debate, but it will not be in a position to do so unless<br />
we pass our amendment tonight; if we do not do so,<br />
the clause will stand in the Bill undebatable.<br />
The suggestion has been made that somehow this<br />
issue is not appropriate for your Lordships’ House<br />
because it wholly relates to Members <strong>of</strong> the other<br />
place. That is not so. It relates to all candidates who<br />
wish to stand for the other place. It is therefore perfectly<br />
appropriate for your Lordships’ House to take a view<br />
on this issue. That is the first illusion that I must seek<br />
to dispel.<br />
There are other misunderstandings, too. It has been<br />
suggested that somehow this is an important issue to<br />
deal with because there is some sort <strong>of</strong> new security<br />
risk. Frankly, as those who have had the experience <strong>of</strong><br />
standing as candidates will know, you do not have to<br />
put your name on the ballot paper for your address to<br />
be well known in your area by other means. If there<br />
was a security risk, no doubt the Government would<br />
come forward with some direct evidence from the<br />
police or the security services to that effect.<br />
The Government very properly instituted a consultation<br />
process on this issue back in November, I think. We<br />
now have the response. Only two MPs—on behalf <strong>of</strong><br />
other MPs, I should say—responded. The Electoral<br />
Commission supported the idea that there might be a<br />
change in the law. However, electoral administrators,<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficers, the Newspaper Society and, most<br />
important <strong>of</strong> all, the public have made it absolutely<br />
clear that they think that any reduction in transparency<br />
on this issue would be totally inappropriate and certainly<br />
out <strong>of</strong> favour at the present time. The only political<br />
party to make any sort <strong>of</strong> submission to the consultation<br />
process were the Liberal Democrats and we were<br />
clearly against withholding addresses in this way.<br />
Of course, there was a vote in the other place. The<br />
Lord Chancellor and the Minister responsible for the<br />
Bill both voted against this change, which they felt was<br />
clearly inappropriate, without proper discussion and<br />
debate. The Minister said on a previous occasion that<br />
he intends there to be a free vote, rather than a<br />
whipped vote, on this proposal. I hope that that is still<br />
the case; no doubt he will be able to confirm that.<br />
At the moment, increasing the secrecy that surrounds<br />
the political process will seem even more inappropriate<br />
than it was when we discussed these matters at Second<br />
Reading and in Grand Committee. Frankly, I believe<br />
that the public will think it pretty odd if that is<br />
introduced for the politicians who may stand for election<br />
to the other place—but not, incidentally, in relation to<br />
some <strong>of</strong> the devolved Administrations. You would<br />
think that, if there were real pressure for this to<br />
happen, it might be in Northern Ireland, where there<br />
is a reasonable case for doing this. However, so far as I<br />
am aware, there is no such pressure and there is<br />
certainly nothing in this clause to cover anyone else at<br />
any other level in the political system. I think that the<br />
public would regard this as another attempt by the<br />
political classes to protect themselves from scrutiny<br />
when that scrutiny was thought to be perfectly appropriate<br />
for everyone else. I hope that the Minister will now be<br />
rather more responsive to that concern than he was<br />
able to be prior to the consultation period. I beg to<br />
move.<br />
6.30 pm<br />
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Tyler, will know that unfortunately I dissent<br />
from the position that he has taken. I ask him to<br />
forgive me because we work together very well in a<br />
number <strong>of</strong> areas <strong>of</strong> the Bill.<br />
I did not move my amendment because I wanted to<br />
concentrate on the essence <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord’s case.<br />
This is not about risk to Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>; the<br />
issue in this case is the risk to the families <strong>of</strong> Members<br />
<strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>. In Committee, I drew attention to two<br />
occasions: the first was when a Member <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
was in Paris and an incident was about to take place;<br />
and the second was the incident that took place outside<br />
the home <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord King <strong>of</strong> Bridgwater,<br />
when the police were brought in and there were subsequent<br />
prosecutions. In the latter case, there was clearly a risk<br />
to the family.<br />
I am worried by the fact that the case put by the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Tyler, seems to be based on the<br />
proposition that, because we are in public life, our<br />
families have to take into account the fact that we may<br />
be placing them at risk. He was not quite as blunt as<br />
that, but that is the implication. I want to give an<br />
example. If a person anywhere in the world were to<br />
Google the names <strong>of</strong> every single Member <strong>of</strong><br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>—their names and addresses would be available<br />
on the internet following a general election campaign—<br />
that person would have a database that could be used<br />
against each individual Member. They could dispatch<br />
from anywhere in the world envelopes containing<br />
biological material or other dangerous agents and<br />
send them to the homes <strong>of</strong> those Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
The mail that we receive here is screened but we all<br />
know that that is not the position with mail that goes<br />
to our homes. We are advised at every stage in our<br />
political lives to be more diligent and careful with<br />
regard to our personal arrangements because <strong>of</strong> the<br />
dangers from terrorism and I cannot believe that a<br />
political party would argue that we should not have<br />
that in mind when taking decisions on this issue. We<br />
cannot place the families <strong>of</strong> Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
in that position.<br />
The noble Lord has said that this material is already<br />
available. Of course it is. You could have gone to my<br />
former constituency in Workington and asked on the<br />
streets, “Where does the Member <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> for<br />
Workington live?”, and you would probably have been<br />
told the answer within a road or two. However, when<br />
you are in some obscure country in another part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
world, you do not have access to that kind <strong>of</strong> material.<br />
When I oppose the noble Lord’s amendment, I am<br />
referring to a completely different kind <strong>of</strong> threat.<br />
I am also concerned about the impact <strong>of</strong> international<br />
terrorism on how Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> conduct<br />
themselves in a public place—particularly in the Chamber<br />
in <strong>Parliament</strong>, where their remarks might be heavily<br />
publicised. Even though they are protected by privilege,<br />
if Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> feel constrained in any way<br />
because <strong>of</strong> the possible danger to their families that<br />
might arise out <strong>of</strong> any statements that they make in<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>, I believe that we have a responsibility to<br />
try to remove that possibility <strong>of</strong> constraint. We must
1113 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1114<br />
place Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> in a position where they<br />
feel confident that what they say will not lead to<br />
unnecessary risk to their families.<br />
I am afraid that the remarks <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Tyler, do not really address that. I am sorry to<br />
say that, because we have worked together well on this<br />
Bill. However, this is an area where we have a fundamental<br />
difference <strong>of</strong> opinion. As I said in Committee, my<br />
views on this matter stem basically from the noble<br />
Lord’s lobby. I supported the principle <strong>of</strong> absolute<br />
transparency that he advocated until I had the conversation<br />
with my wife, to which I referred in Committee. She<br />
explained what happened in our family during the<br />
Iraqi debate in the 1990s, when I was quite involved<br />
with the Iraqi opposition.<br />
Now is the time to change the nature <strong>of</strong> the debate<br />
in this area. I appeal to the noble Lord not to press his<br />
amendment to a vote today because I think that it<br />
sends out the wrong message. For all the goodness that<br />
lies in the libertarian values that he and his party<br />
colleagues hold, this is one area where I am afraid that<br />
too much transparency will place individual Members’<br />
families at risk in a totally unacceptable way.<br />
Lord Monson: My Lords, when I first read about<br />
this amendment in the press, it seemed to me a good<br />
one and well worthy <strong>of</strong> support were it to go to a<br />
Division. After all, Enoch Powell—not exactly the<br />
most uncontroversial <strong>of</strong> political figures—always insisted<br />
on having his name, private home address and telephone<br />
number published in the London telephone directory.<br />
Furthermore—this is not so widely known—while he<br />
was Member <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong> for South Down, he always<br />
refused to carry a side-arm for personal protection<br />
against terrorist attacks, as he was legally entitled to<br />
do. Given his military background, he could have used<br />
the weapon to good effect in an emergency. However,<br />
he refused to do so because he felt that it would be<br />
insulting to his constituents, whether or not they were<br />
his supporters.<br />
It must be conceded that that was more than 30 years<br />
ago. Perhaps the British character has changed since<br />
then and, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours,<br />
has just reminded us, we now have a problem with<br />
international terrorism, which hardly existed at that<br />
time. So far as the British character goes, there are<br />
some who claim that we have become collectively—not<br />
individually <strong>of</strong> course—more emotionally incontinent<br />
and much less able, and certainly much less willing, to<br />
restrain our words or actions. The rather alarming<br />
scenes outside a magistrates’ court in Devon a few<br />
days ago, when a woman was charged with paedophile<br />
<strong>of</strong>fences, was perhaps indicative <strong>of</strong> this. So, on further<br />
reflection, the argument seems to be much more finely<br />
balanced, and I am now not so sure that I can support<br />
the amendment.<br />
Lord Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I spoke<br />
in favour <strong>of</strong> the amendment in Grand Committee. I<br />
remain sympathetic to it and run the risk <strong>of</strong> incurring<br />
the wrath <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.<br />
I accept that the arguments are finely balanced. I<br />
believe that the link between those who seek election<br />
and the electorate should be as close as possible. The<br />
publication <strong>of</strong> home addresses is part <strong>of</strong> that.<br />
At the margin, as we heard in a powerful speech by<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, there are<br />
potential security risks. Yes, it is possible that people<br />
will pack packets <strong>of</strong> anthrax in Pakistan and mail<br />
them to individual Members <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>, so there is<br />
a risk, but it is a risk at the margin.<br />
I am concerned about the other principle addressed<br />
by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, which is that this<br />
measure was slipped in without any <strong>of</strong> the people in<br />
the other place having seriously debated its pros and<br />
cons. I entirely accept the argument that it is not for us<br />
in this House to lay down the terms and conditions<br />
under which people stand for election to the other<br />
place, but it is important to provide an opportunity to<br />
air all the issues, particularly in the light <strong>of</strong> the difficulties<br />
that we are facing at the present time.<br />
The Division Lists at the end <strong>of</strong> the non-debate that<br />
took place were divided across parties; strong views<br />
were held in various parts and various parties. It will<br />
be important for us to give the other place a chance to<br />
debate the issue, to discuss the principles ab initio with<br />
tabula rasa. We would not wish to interfere in any way<br />
with that, but the debate should take place because it<br />
is such an important issue in our democratic system,<br />
particularly when that system is under strain. That is<br />
why I support the noble Lord’s amendment.<br />
Lord Brooke <strong>of</strong> Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I<br />
shall be brief. At Second Reading, I intervened on the<br />
speech <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord Hodgson and asked<br />
whether he was including security considerations. It<br />
would not be right for me to tell your Lordships’<br />
House what my noble friend said to me after the<br />
debate was over, but because this debate will be a<br />
quarry for any subsequent debate that may occur in<br />
the House <strong>of</strong> Commons, I will add one other consideration<br />
as someone who has been under threat. I agree that it<br />
is easy to find out where someone lives but, if he or she<br />
lives in a block <strong>of</strong> flats, for example, we are placing at<br />
risk all the people who live in that block <strong>of</strong> flats and<br />
not simply ourselves.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, having listened to the<br />
contributions and having found the remarks <strong>of</strong> the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, incredibly persuasive<br />
and articulate in presenting the case against this<br />
amendment, I would not want to and would be incapable<br />
<strong>of</strong> adding anything to what he said. It stands on its<br />
own merits.<br />
I will make one brief point on a technicality: the<br />
question whether the other place had an opportunity<br />
to consider this measure. That is at the heart <strong>of</strong> our<br />
position. There was a vote in the other place. The<br />
result was that 235 Members voted in its favour and<br />
176 voted against it. That was a matter <strong>of</strong> a free vote<br />
on the part <strong>of</strong> the government party and the Conservatives.<br />
It was, sadly, the subject <strong>of</strong> a three-line Whip on the<br />
part <strong>of</strong> the Liberal Democrats. None the less, the<br />
Whip was voted against by several <strong>of</strong> their Members.<br />
The argument presented is that the matter was not<br />
discussed, but Members <strong>of</strong> the other place had seen<br />
the amendment in the name <strong>of</strong> my honourable friend<br />
Julian Lewis. The debate had continued; most people<br />
had an opinion on it and they expressed it in the most
1115 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1116<br />
[LORD BATES]<br />
important place: in the Division Lobby. As the elected<br />
House, they expressed their opinion on a matter that<br />
impacts them; it does not impact us in this House.<br />
Our position is that, if that view was taken in<br />
the other place and it was the settled view <strong>of</strong> that<br />
House, it would be wrong for us in this place to seek to<br />
overturn that from a procedural point <strong>of</strong> view, not to<br />
mention the qualitative and security arguments that<br />
have been presented so forcefully in this debate from<br />
many sides. Members on our Benches would have a<br />
free vote again in any Division, but I hope that we will<br />
allow the House <strong>of</strong> Commons to determine the terms<br />
on which they stand for election and respect that.<br />
6.45 pm<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, Clause 21 removes the<br />
requirements on candidates to provide their full address<br />
on statements <strong>of</strong> persons nominated and the ballot<br />
paper at UK parliamentary elections. The clause was<br />
inserted into the Bill following an amendment that<br />
was tabled by the honourable Member for New Forest<br />
East, Dr Lewis, and accepted by the other place at<br />
Report following a free vote. The clause provides that,<br />
at a parliamentary election, candidates’ full home<br />
addresses will no longer appear on the nomination<br />
paper but will instead be supplied to the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer on a separate home address form. A home<br />
address form enables candidates to choose whether<br />
their full home addresses will be included on the<br />
electoral documents available to the public. That is the<br />
statement <strong>of</strong> persons nominated on the ballot paper.<br />
Should a candidate prefer that their full home address<br />
not be made public, these documents will instead<br />
identify the constituency in which the candidate has<br />
an address.<br />
The Government issued a consultation paper on<br />
26 November 2008. From the 65 responses to the<br />
consultation, it was clear that there are strongly held<br />
views for and against changing the legislation. Broadly<br />
speaking, a majority <strong>of</strong> politicians who responded<br />
and the Electoral Commission favoured change, while<br />
administrators, returning <strong>of</strong>ficers and the majority <strong>of</strong><br />
responses from the public did not. Those in favour<br />
argued that the candidate and their families faced<br />
more ordinary risks to their safety and security, which<br />
warranted the need for their home addresses to be<br />
removed from the public domain. By contrast, those<br />
against the idea argued that the interest <strong>of</strong> accountability<br />
and free expression <strong>of</strong> democracy would not be served<br />
by allowing candidates to make it more difficult for<br />
the public to find out information about them.<br />
As a result <strong>of</strong> the responses to the consultation and<br />
the importance <strong>of</strong> the issue, we took the view that the<br />
matter would be for the other place and not for the<br />
Government to decide on—hence there was a free vote<br />
on the issue. That allowed those who were elected to<br />
make a decision on their behaviour during elections<br />
and on the information that should be made available<br />
to the public. I reiterate that the Government take no<br />
position on the merits <strong>of</strong> Clause 21 and that the<br />
inclusion <strong>of</strong> the clause in the Bill is not government<br />
policy. The Government will therefore allow a free<br />
vote on Amendment 76.<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am grateful that we have<br />
had an opportunity to discuss this important issue this<br />
evening. Ever since the Ballot Act 1872, the electorate<br />
have had the right to know where their candidates live.<br />
I suggest to your Lordships’ House that we should<br />
take seriously any reduction in that transparency—hence<br />
my anxiety, which I am disappointed that the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, does not share, that<br />
the other place should debate the issue. That was the<br />
issue on which he and I agreed on Monday and we<br />
were successful with that amendment. That place should<br />
take a decision <strong>of</strong> this importance after careful discussion.<br />
If the Minister really believes that taking an amendment<br />
out <strong>of</strong> its grouping—no one expected it to come—and<br />
then putting it to a vote without any debate and<br />
without its even being moved is a proper way to<br />
discuss such an issue, I am disappointed.<br />
I have been a Member <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>. My address<br />
was in the local telephone book for all the years for<br />
which I represented my constituency. As I mentioned<br />
in Grand Committee, when I had a majority <strong>of</strong> nine,<br />
at three o’clock in the morning pig farmers would ring<br />
up to say, “We was the nine”, and give me a great deal<br />
<strong>of</strong> stick on what my views should be on the pig<br />
industry, so I understand the point about families.<br />
The logic <strong>of</strong> the submission <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Campbell-Savours, is that every representative in<br />
every devolved Assembly should be given the same<br />
protection. I have listened especially to the experience<br />
<strong>of</strong> those Members <strong>of</strong> your Lordships’ House who<br />
know about Northern Ireland. Why should Members<br />
<strong>of</strong> the House <strong>of</strong> Commons be protected in a way that<br />
Members <strong>of</strong> the Northern Ireland Assembly are not?<br />
If the Government want to make some real changes, I<br />
suggest that they remove the provision from the Bill<br />
and look at the whole issue again, so that there can be<br />
proper consideration, rather than have it forced through<br />
as it has been so far.<br />
We still have not heard from the Minister or anyone<br />
else any evidence from the police or the security forces<br />
that this is an essential requirement to protect candidates<br />
for the other place and their families. Yet, on a whim,<br />
some seem to want to remove the transparency that<br />
has been in place for some 137 years. This is an issue<br />
that should be debated, discussed and decided in the<br />
other place. Therefore, I beg leave to test the opinion<br />
<strong>of</strong> the House.<br />
6.51 pm<br />
Division on Amendment 76<br />
Contents 57; Not-Contents 129.<br />
Amendment 76 disagreed.<br />
Division No. 3<br />
Addington, L. [Teller]<br />
Avebury, L.<br />
Barker, B.<br />
Barnett, L.<br />
Bonham-Carter <strong>of</strong> Yarnbury,<br />
B.<br />
Burnett, L.<br />
Chidgey, L.<br />
Clement-Jones, L.<br />
CONTENTS<br />
Colville <strong>of</strong> Culross, V.<br />
Corbett <strong>of</strong> Castle Vale, L.<br />
Cotter, L.<br />
Dholakia, L.<br />
Dixon-Smith, L.<br />
Dykes, L.<br />
Falkner <strong>of</strong> Margravine, B.<br />
Glasgow, E.<br />
Goodhart, L.
1117 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1118<br />
Greaves, L.<br />
Hamwee, B.<br />
Harris <strong>of</strong> Richmond, B.<br />
Hodgson <strong>of</strong> Astley Abbotts,<br />
L.<br />
Hollick, L.<br />
Hooson, L.<br />
Hylton, L.<br />
Kalms, L.<br />
Lee <strong>of</strong> Trafford, L.<br />
Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill, L.<br />
Livsey <strong>of</strong> Talgarth, L.<br />
Mackie <strong>of</strong> Benshie, L.<br />
McNally, L.<br />
Maddock, B.<br />
Marland, L.<br />
Miller <strong>of</strong> Chilthorne Domer,<br />
B.<br />
Monson, L.<br />
Morgan <strong>of</strong> Huyton, B.<br />
Neuberger, B.<br />
Newby, L.<br />
Adams <strong>of</strong> Craigielea, B.<br />
Adonis, L.<br />
Alli, L.<br />
Alton <strong>of</strong> Liverpool, L.<br />
Anderson <strong>of</strong> Swansea, L.<br />
Anelay <strong>of</strong> St Johns, B.<br />
Archer <strong>of</strong> Sandwell, L.<br />
Attlee, E.<br />
Bassam <strong>of</strong> Brighton, L.<br />
Bates, L.<br />
Bernstein <strong>of</strong> Craigweil, L.<br />
Bew, L.<br />
Billingham, B.<br />
Bilston, L.<br />
Blackstone, B.<br />
Brennan, L.<br />
Brett, L.<br />
Brookman, L.<br />
Brooks <strong>of</strong> Tremorfa, L.<br />
Brougham and Vaux, L.<br />
Buscombe, B.<br />
Butler-Sloss, B.<br />
Campbell-Savours, L.<br />
Carter <strong>of</strong> Coles, L.<br />
Cathcart, E.<br />
Chandos, V.<br />
Clark <strong>of</strong> Windermere, L.<br />
Clarke <strong>of</strong> Hampstead, L.<br />
Clinton-Davis, L.<br />
Colwyn, L.<br />
Cope <strong>of</strong> Berkeley, L.<br />
Crawley, B.<br />
Davidson <strong>of</strong> Glen Clova, L.<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Coity, L. [Teller]<br />
Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham, L.<br />
De Mauley, L.<br />
Dean <strong>of</strong> Thornton-le-Fylde,<br />
B.<br />
D’Souza, B.<br />
Dundee, E.<br />
Eatwell, L.<br />
Elystan-Morgan, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Parkside, L.<br />
Evans <strong>of</strong> Watford, L.<br />
Farrington <strong>of</strong> Ribbleton, B.<br />
Faulkner <strong>of</strong> Worcester, L.<br />
Ferrers, E.<br />
Freeman, L.<br />
Gale, B.<br />
Gardner <strong>of</strong> Parkes, B.<br />
Gibson <strong>of</strong> Market Rasen, B.<br />
Gilbert, L.<br />
Golding, B.<br />
NOT CONTENTS<br />
Nicholson <strong>of</strong> Winterbourne,<br />
B.<br />
Pendry, L.<br />
Razzall, L.<br />
Roberts <strong>of</strong> Llandudno, L.<br />
Rodgers <strong>of</strong> Quarry Bank, L.<br />
Rooker, L.<br />
Scott <strong>of</strong> Needham Market, B.<br />
Shutt <strong>of</strong> Greetland, L. [Teller]<br />
Soley, L.<br />
Stoddart <strong>of</strong> Swindon, L.<br />
Taverne, L.<br />
Thomas <strong>of</strong> Gresford, L.<br />
Thomas <strong>of</strong> Winchester, B.<br />
Tonge, B.<br />
Tyler, L.<br />
Waddington, L.<br />
Wallace <strong>of</strong> Saltaire, L.<br />
Walmsley, B.<br />
Walpole, L.<br />
Williams <strong>of</strong> Crosby, B.<br />
Gould <strong>of</strong> Potternewton, B.<br />
Graham <strong>of</strong> Edmonton, L.<br />
Grantchester, L.<br />
Greengross, B.<br />
Grenfell, L.<br />
Grocott, L.<br />
Hanningfield, L.<br />
Harris <strong>of</strong> Haringey, L.<br />
Haskel, L. [Teller]<br />
Haworth, L.<br />
Henig, B.<br />
Henley, L.<br />
Hilton <strong>of</strong> Eggardon, B.<br />
Howe, E.<br />
Howe <strong>of</strong> Idlicote, B.<br />
Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath, L.<br />
Hunt <strong>of</strong> Wirral, L.<br />
Hurd <strong>of</strong> Westwell, L.<br />
Jay <strong>of</strong> Ewelme, L.<br />
Jay <strong>of</strong> Paddington, B.<br />
Jones, L.<br />
Jones <strong>of</strong> Whitchurch, B.<br />
Jopling, L.<br />
King <strong>of</strong> Bridgwater, L.<br />
King <strong>of</strong> West Bromwich, L.<br />
Kirkhill, L.<br />
Laird, L.<br />
Lindsay, E.<br />
L<strong>of</strong>t<strong>house</strong> <strong>of</strong> Pontefract, L.<br />
Luke, L.<br />
McDonagh, B.<br />
Mar, C.<br />
Masham <strong>of</strong> Ilton, B.<br />
Massey <strong>of</strong> Darwen, B.<br />
Maxton, L.<br />
May <strong>of</strong> Oxford, L.<br />
Montrose, D.<br />
Moonie, L.<br />
Morgan <strong>of</strong> Drefelin, B.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Aberavon, L.<br />
Morris <strong>of</strong> Bolton, B.<br />
Norton <strong>of</strong> Louth, L.<br />
O’Cathain, B.<br />
O’Neill <strong>of</strong> Clackmannan, L.<br />
Pannick, L.<br />
Parekh, L.<br />
Patel <strong>of</strong> Blackburn, L.<br />
Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch, L.<br />
Ramsay <strong>of</strong> Cartvale, B.<br />
Reay, L.<br />
Roberts <strong>of</strong> Conwy, L.<br />
Rosser, L.<br />
Rowlands, L.<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon, B.<br />
Scotland <strong>of</strong> Asthal, B.<br />
Seccombe, B.<br />
Selkirk <strong>of</strong> Douglas, L.<br />
Selsdon, L.<br />
Shrewsbury, E.<br />
Simon, V.<br />
Snape, L.<br />
Stewartby, L.<br />
Symons <strong>of</strong> Vernham Dean, B.<br />
Taylor <strong>of</strong> Bolton, B.<br />
Taylor <strong>of</strong> Holbeach, L.<br />
7.03 pm<br />
Amendment 76A<br />
Moved by Lord Tyler<br />
Tomlinson, L.<br />
Uddin, B.<br />
Verma, B.<br />
Warsi, B.<br />
Warwick <strong>of</strong> Undercliffe, B.<br />
Watson <strong>of</strong> Invergowrie, L.<br />
Whitaker, B.<br />
Whitty, L.<br />
Wilcox, B.<br />
Wilkins, B.<br />
Williamson <strong>of</strong> Horton, L.<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green, L.<br />
76A: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Description <strong>of</strong> candidates<br />
(1) Schedule 1 to the 1983 Act (parliamentary elections rules)<br />
is amended as follows.<br />
(2) In rule 6 (nomination <strong>of</strong> candidates), for sub-paragraph<br />
(3)(a) there is inserted—<br />
“(a) where the candidate is not registered with a registered<br />
political party, a description <strong>of</strong> not more than 6 words in<br />
length, authorised by the Electoral Commission;<br />
(aa) where the candidate is registered with a registered<br />
political party, the name <strong>of</strong> the party as registered under<br />
section 28 <strong>of</strong> the Political Parties, Elections and<br />
Referendums Act 2000; or”.<br />
(3) Omit rule 6A (nomination papers: name <strong>of</strong> registered<br />
political party).”<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, I must first <strong>of</strong> all apologise<br />
on behalf <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord Steel <strong>of</strong> Aikwood.<br />
He was here earlier; unfortunately, the timing has<br />
coincided with a very important occasion to commemorate<br />
the foundation <strong>of</strong> the Anti-Apartheid Movement, <strong>of</strong><br />
which he was a founder member. Not many people<br />
can still say that. He is very sorry not to be here to<br />
move the amendment on the Marshalled List in his<br />
name and mine.<br />
This is a particular issue that has arisen recently,<br />
and I hope the Government are going to be able to<br />
give us some guidance on how to deal with it. The<br />
description <strong>of</strong> candidates on a ballot paper has, on<br />
two specific occasions recently, been used not to inform<br />
the electorate <strong>of</strong> the status <strong>of</strong> the candidate, but<br />
effectively to put propaganda on the ballot paper.<br />
The first example was in Scotland, where certain<br />
candidates put “Alex Salmond for First Minister” on<br />
the ballot paper as their description—which was clearly<br />
completely outwith the intentions <strong>of</strong> the regulations,<br />
but was permitted. Similarly, and more recently, the<br />
BNP put on the ballot paper against candidates not a<br />
description <strong>of</strong> the party, but a slogan: “Protecting<br />
British Jobs”. In both cases, there will, I think, be<br />
widespread recognition around the House that this is a<br />
deliberate distortion <strong>of</strong> the intention <strong>of</strong> the ballot<br />
paper, which is intended to be entirely factual—nothing<br />
to do with propaganda or slogans. My noble friend Lord<br />
Steel has, with the assistance <strong>of</strong> the authorities <strong>of</strong> the<br />
House, produced a way in which this problem can be<br />
dealt with; that is incorporated in Amendment 76A.<br />
My noble friend Lord Steel left with me a number<br />
<strong>of</strong> cuttings, which I think at this point in the evening I
1119 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1120<br />
[LORD TYLER]<br />
shall forbear to use, because his reading matter ranges<br />
from the Sunday Times to Private Eye. Members <strong>of</strong><br />
your Lordships’ House do not need to be told what<br />
either <strong>of</strong> those august journals think <strong>of</strong> the way in<br />
which the BNP, in particular, has used the electoral<br />
system to promote its policies.<br />
However, there is a very serious point here, and it<br />
was addressed in the Gould <strong>report</strong> on the Scottish<br />
elections <strong>of</strong> 2007. It was quite clear in that election<br />
that there was real confusion in Scotland as a result<br />
<strong>of</strong> the way in which the ballot paper had, in my<br />
view and the view <strong>of</strong> my noble friend, been misused. It<br />
may be that the Minister this evening may not be able<br />
to accept the amendment in its present form, despite<br />
the assistance <strong>of</strong> the authorities <strong>of</strong> the House. But I<br />
hope the Minister will accept that there is a real<br />
problem here, and something needs to be done. I beg<br />
to move.<br />
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am very pleased that the<br />
Liberal Democrat Front Bench has now come around<br />
to the view that I have been promoting for some time,<br />
that slogans should be omitted from ballot papers. In<br />
the past, all the parties have been guilty <strong>of</strong> using the<br />
description in this way. In my view, it is quite wrong<br />
and I hope that ways will be found to stop it.<br />
I have in front <strong>of</strong> me a copy <strong>of</strong> the ballot paper for<br />
the elections to the European <strong>Parliament</strong> in the north-west<br />
region, which has one or two interesting examples on<br />
it <strong>of</strong> exactly what we are complaining about—putting<br />
political slogans and other irrelevant information on<br />
ballot papers. The British National Party, as my noble<br />
friend has already said, says in its subsidiary description,<br />
“British National Party: Protecting British Jobs”. That<br />
is clearly a slogan. The Christian Party says it is<br />
“proclaiming Christ’s Lordship”. That may or may<br />
not be a slogan, but it seems to me that if the Christian<br />
Party wishes to stand, then what it is about should be<br />
part <strong>of</strong> its campaigning and not on the ballot paper.<br />
The Conservative Party and the Labour Party are<br />
crystal pure on this issue, and have nothing further,<br />
and the Liberal Democrats, for reasons I do not quite<br />
understand, say, “Liberal Democrats: liberal democrat”.<br />
I do not think “Liberal Democrat” is a slogan, but<br />
why “Liberal Democrats” appears followed by “Liberal<br />
Democrat”, I do not understand. Nevertheless, I think<br />
we are above reproach there.<br />
Then we have the English Democrats Party, which<br />
says, “English Democrats: Putting England First”.<br />
That is clearly a slogan. We have something called the<br />
Jury Team, which I do not understand at all, that says,<br />
“Democracy, Accountability, Transparency”. That<br />
might be an ideological statement, but it is not<br />
something that should be on the ballot paper.<br />
The Socialist Labour Party says, “Leader—Arthur<br />
Scargill”. People will have their views as to whether he<br />
should be on the ballot paper; it did not do them much<br />
good. The Green Party says, “Green Party: Say No To<br />
Racism”. That is clearly a slogan, and while one does<br />
not doubt that the Green Party is anti-racist, it ought<br />
not to be on the ballot paper. So it seems to me that<br />
this is prevalent: people are using it to promote a<br />
political message. It is still going on and it ought to be<br />
stopped.<br />
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I want to speak<br />
on this amendment, because I think it is an important<br />
issue. The reality is that we were in Committee prior to<br />
the last round <strong>of</strong> elections. It seems to me that this is<br />
an escalating level <strong>of</strong> abuse: if we allow it to develop in<br />
one particular area, then someone else will say, “Well,<br />
if they can do it, we can do it”, and more and more<br />
candidates are going to adopt this approach in the<br />
future. We learn from this last election, which, as I<br />
said, took place after we were in Committee. I would<br />
have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as a<br />
former Presiding Officer in the Scottish <strong>Parliament</strong>,<br />
would have had particular experience <strong>of</strong> this, as I<br />
presume that candidates in Scotland have made<br />
representations to him that have led to him tabling this<br />
amendment.<br />
Irrespective <strong>of</strong> what is in the Minister’s brief, which<br />
may well have been written prior to these most recent<br />
elections and the experience <strong>of</strong> candidates in various<br />
parts <strong>of</strong> the country <strong>of</strong> being confronted with a ballot<br />
paper riddled with slogans—many areas had a very<br />
long ballot paper <strong>of</strong> some 15 to 18 inches long: the<br />
longest one I have ever seen in my life—I would have<br />
thought that my noble friend might want to indicate a<br />
little flexibility during the course <strong>of</strong> his response. At<br />
the least he might indicate that the Government are<br />
now considering these issues so that in the future we<br />
may consider further legislation in this area.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, briefly, I have some sympathy<br />
for what is behind this amendment. Like the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I do not like the growth<br />
in the use <strong>of</strong> slogans on the ballot paper. As he said,<br />
since Committee we have seen them used a great deal<br />
in the European elections. The noble Lord, Lord<br />
Greaves, took us through the ballot paper for the<br />
north-west—the one on which I would have put my<br />
cross—and speculated whether the expression “liberal<br />
democrat” could be seen as a slogan. As someone who<br />
came from the old Liberal Party and <strong>of</strong>ten feels that<br />
there is not much liberalism left among the Liberal<br />
Democrats, perhaps he is right that it is a slogan—but<br />
then, looking at some <strong>of</strong> the other slogans, I imagine<br />
the poor berated Prime Minister might have rather<br />
resented the fact that the BNP took to paraphrasing<br />
his line “British jobs for British people” by adding its<br />
slogan “Protecting British jobs”. It might have been<br />
preferable if we did not have such slogans on the<br />
ballot paper, and I will be interested to hear what the<br />
Government have to say in response to the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Tyler.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, the amendment seeks<br />
to prevent the use by political parties <strong>of</strong> descriptions<br />
on nomination and ballot papers at parliamentary<br />
elections, and provides that independent candidates<br />
may use descriptions <strong>of</strong> up to six words. The<br />
description would have to be authorised by the<br />
Electoral Commission.<br />
The regulation <strong>of</strong> party descriptions has evolved<br />
considerably over the past decade. The Political Parties,<br />
Elections and Referendums Act 2000 provided for the<br />
compulsory registration <strong>of</strong> political parties. The Electoral<br />
Commission’s 2003 <strong>report</strong>, Standing for Election in the
1121 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1122<br />
<strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>, included the recommendation that<br />
parties should be given the option to register<br />
descriptions, and that candidates be limited to using<br />
their registered party name or a registered description<br />
on the ballot paper. The Electoral Administration<br />
Act 2006 introduced this measure for UK elections.<br />
However, independent candidates may use only the<br />
description “independent”.<br />
I recognise the concerns that have been expressed<br />
by politicians on all sides and by a number <strong>of</strong> electors<br />
who have questioned whether the descriptions used on<br />
the ballot paper at the recent European elections were<br />
appropriate, even if they were within the law. In addition,<br />
there has been a debate for some time about whether<br />
the existing arrangements are fair to independent<br />
candidates. However, I am concerned that the proposal<br />
set out in this amendment goes too far in the other<br />
direction.<br />
Within the current framework, smaller or local<br />
parties have the opportunity to register a party name<br />
that capitalises on contentious local issues, and larger<br />
and national parties have argued that this puts them at<br />
a disadvantage. Party descriptions address this<br />
disadvantage by allowing national parties the opportunity<br />
to reflect local circumstances on a ballot paper. For<br />
example, parties commonly use one description when<br />
contesting UK parliamentary elections and another<br />
for elections to the devolved Administrations. The<br />
noble Lord’s amendment would provide that independents<br />
would be the only candidates able to use a description<br />
<strong>of</strong> any kind. I question whether this arrangement goes<br />
too far in allowing independent candidates to make an<br />
appeal that would be denied to political parties.<br />
In addition, while I recognise the noble Lord’s<br />
intentions, I should make it clear that the amendment<br />
is defective since it envisages that candidates are registered<br />
with a political party. This registration is the route by<br />
which the amendment defines candidates who are<br />
compelled to use only the registered party name as a<br />
description. While political parties must register with<br />
the Electoral Commission, there is no requirement<br />
that candidates must register with political parties<br />
before they may stand on that party’s behalf at an<br />
election; nor is there any requirement for any candidate<br />
to be a member <strong>of</strong> the party on whose behalf they are<br />
a candidate.<br />
Another difficulty with the proposed measure is the<br />
burden that it would place on the Electoral Commission.<br />
In considering this issue in 2003, the commission<br />
concluded that it would be impractical for it to,<br />
“attempt to regulate all independent candidates’ descriptions in<br />
the tight timescales allowed by election timetables”.<br />
For this reason, I understand that the Electoral<br />
Commission does not support the noble Lord’s<br />
amendment and is <strong>of</strong> the view that the existing position<br />
is satisfactory.<br />
These matters are <strong>of</strong> course kept under review, and<br />
since this issue concerns the way in which those standing<br />
for election communicate with the electorate, it must<br />
be right that any change should be made in discussion<br />
with all those who have a stake in the electoral process.<br />
Therefore, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his<br />
amendment.<br />
7.15 pm<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am grateful to all those<br />
who have contributed to the debate, although I must<br />
say that I found the tone <strong>of</strong> the Minister’s response<br />
much less forthcoming that I had hoped it would be as<br />
a result <strong>of</strong> the very effective way in which the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, in his normal emollient<br />
way, had invited the Minister to be equally emollient.<br />
There is a serious issue here. I understand what the<br />
Minister says about the Electoral Commission’s work,<br />
and it was clear from the Gould commission that what<br />
it recommended was not intended to be the last word<br />
on this subject; as I anticipated, there would be further<br />
discussion about the ballot paper design. I hope that I<br />
can read from what the Minister has just said that the<br />
continuing review to which he referred is ongoing: that<br />
it has not stopped and will not cease simply because<br />
there is a problem at the moment. I also understand<br />
that the Electoral Commission will review what happened<br />
in this respect in the recent European parliamentary<br />
elections. I hope that I have got that right. The Minister<br />
may like to intervene if I have got it wrong, but I hope<br />
the fact that he is not intervening suggests that that is<br />
exactly what will happen.<br />
In those terms, having aired an important issue and<br />
the Government having responded, I beg leave to<br />
withdraw the amendment.<br />
Amendment 76A withdrawn.<br />
Clause 23 : Filling vacant European <strong>Parliament</strong> seats<br />
in Northern Ireland<br />
Amendment 77<br />
Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe<br />
77: Clause 23, page 25, line 16, at end insert—<br />
“(aa) where the previous MEP stood in the names <strong>of</strong> two or<br />
more registered parties when elected (or most recently<br />
elected), by a person jointly nominated by the nominating<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> those parties;”<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, Clause 23 provides for<br />
regulations to be made that would permit a vacancy in<br />
a Northern Ireland European parliamentary seat to be<br />
filled by a person nominated by the nominating <strong>of</strong>ficer<br />
<strong>of</strong> the political party on whose behalf the vacating<br />
MEP stood when elected.<br />
Currently, the law provides for by-elections to be<br />
held only in the event that a European parliamentary<br />
seat is vacated in Northern Ireland. Noble Lords will<br />
be aware that by-elections to fill vacancies are generally<br />
undesirable in elections where the single transferable<br />
vote form <strong>of</strong> proportional representation is used because<br />
this has the potential to distort the careful balance <strong>of</strong><br />
seats that will have been secured by the election. Last<br />
year, the Government consulted publicly in Northern<br />
Ireland on possible changes to the current system, and<br />
there was substantial support for introducing the method<br />
set out in Clause 23 <strong>of</strong> replacing MEPs from political<br />
parties from both sides <strong>of</strong> the community.<br />
Amendments 77 and 78 amend Clause 23 so that<br />
regulations may provide for an MEP who stood in the<br />
name <strong>of</strong> two or more political parties when elected to<br />
be replaced by a person nominated jointly by the<br />
nominating <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> those parties. The law generally
1123 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1124<br />
[LORD TUNNICLIFFE]<br />
provides for a candidate to stand on behalf <strong>of</strong> more<br />
than one political party at a European election, and<br />
noble Lords may be aware that just such a candidate<br />
was recently returned in Northern Ireland at the recent<br />
European election there.<br />
In other areas <strong>of</strong> electoral law, where a nominating<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer has a specific role we have sought to ensure that<br />
that role is undertaken jointly by nominating <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
in cases in which a candidate stands on behalf <strong>of</strong> more<br />
than one party. For example, under the European<br />
parliamentary elections rules for Northern Ireland, a<br />
person may not be validly nominated to stand for<br />
election using more than one party’s description unless<br />
the nominating <strong>of</strong>ficer <strong>of</strong> each party concerned authorises<br />
this. In line with this approach, I believe that when an<br />
MEP who stood on behalf <strong>of</strong> more than one party<br />
vacates his or her seat, the nominating <strong>of</strong>ficers <strong>of</strong> each<br />
<strong>of</strong> the parties on whose behalf the MEP stood should<br />
jointly nominate a replacement.<br />
These amendments would provide valuable clarification<br />
<strong>of</strong> how the proposed new method for filling vacant<br />
European parliamentary seats in Northern Ireland<br />
would work for MEPs who have stood on behalf <strong>of</strong><br />
more than one political party. It is for this reason that<br />
I ask noble Lords to support the amendments. I beg to<br />
move.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I have one query on which<br />
the noble Lord can no doubt help me. What happens if<br />
the two nominating <strong>of</strong>ficers—presumably there will be<br />
one from each <strong>of</strong> the two parties—disagree on the<br />
replacement? They might have been in agreement at<br />
the previous election but then, as the noble Lord<br />
pointed out, lost the MEP two or three years later. The<br />
noble Lord does not think that there should be a<br />
by-election under STV, because that does not work on<br />
these occasions. That is another good reason for staying<br />
well clear <strong>of</strong> STV. So what do we do when two nominating<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers who previously were on very good terms but<br />
no longer are, cannot agree on a successor?<br />
Lord Brooke <strong>of</strong> Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, in<br />
Grand Committee I moved an amendment which in a<br />
sense was overtaken by the events that the Minister<br />
explained. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, very kindly<br />
<strong>of</strong>fered me the advice <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>ficials if I sought to bring<br />
the matter back on Report. I wish to put on record<br />
that the <strong>of</strong>ficials whose advice was pr<strong>of</strong>fered could not<br />
have been more assiduous in seeking to advise me. But<br />
I decided that it would have been invidious to identify<br />
specifically in legislation my concern, and therefore I<br />
did not take up the advice.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, if the nominating <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
could not agree on a replacement and no replacement<br />
was nominated, the regulations would make provision<br />
for an election to be held.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, is the position that, on<br />
those occasions, there would have to be a by-election<br />
for just one Member, under a system that the Government<br />
have admitted would not be satisfactory?<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, one has to be satisfied<br />
at some point that one has done the best that one can,<br />
and I believe that this is the best we can do. As one <strong>of</strong><br />
the parties concerned is the Conservative Party, I<br />
cannot see any possibility <strong>of</strong> them not agreeing. I have<br />
nothing further to add.<br />
Amendment 77 agreed.<br />
Amendment 78<br />
Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe<br />
78: Clause 23, page 25, line 17, after “(a)” insert “or (aa)”<br />
Amendment 78 agreed.<br />
Clause 24 : Local returning <strong>of</strong>ficers for elections to the<br />
European <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
Amendment 79<br />
Moved by Baroness Hamwee<br />
79: Clause 24, page 25, line 34, leave out from beginning to<br />
“subsection” in line 35 and insert—<br />
“( ) Section 6 <strong>of</strong> the European <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Elections Act 2002<br />
(c. 24) (returning <strong>of</strong>ficers) is amended as follows.<br />
( ) In subsection (2) (returning <strong>of</strong>ficer for electoral region in<br />
England etc), in paragraph (a), after “the Representation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
People Act 1983 (c. 2)” there is inserted “or is the proper <strong>of</strong>ficer <strong>of</strong><br />
the Greater London Authority for the purposes <strong>of</strong> section 35(2C)<br />
<strong>of</strong> that Act.”<br />
( ) In”<br />
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I shall speak also to<br />
Amendment 80. I appreciate that it may seem a little<br />
impertinent, or at any rate discourteous, to intervene<br />
for the first time in the debates on this Bill at this late<br />
stage. The subject <strong>of</strong> these amendments is a discrete<br />
matter and I declare an interest in that I was asked to<br />
put forward these amendments by the Greater London<br />
Authority. I was a member <strong>of</strong> the London Assembly,<br />
which was a part <strong>of</strong> the Greater London Authority,<br />
for eight years until just over a year ago. I am also a<br />
joint president <strong>of</strong> London Councils.<br />
The GLA has been in discussion with <strong>of</strong>ficials<br />
about this matter, and I am extremely grateful for their<br />
assistance. Both what I have to say and the amendments<br />
will be very familiar to those <strong>of</strong>ficials. Amendment 79<br />
allows the proper <strong>of</strong>ficer <strong>of</strong> the Greater London<br />
Authority—that is, the Greater London Returning<br />
Officer—to be appointed by the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State as<br />
regional returning <strong>of</strong>ficer at a European election in<br />
any region in England and Wales. In practice, it is<br />
likely that the GLRO would be appointed only as<br />
regional returning <strong>of</strong>ficer for London, but there could<br />
be circumstances in which the GLRO may be appointed<br />
to a neighbouring region or, if there are boundary<br />
changes—if anyone is brave enough to address that—to<br />
a region which includes London and an area outside<br />
London. The GLRO will not be appointed automatically<br />
as regional returning <strong>of</strong>ficer. It will be open to him or<br />
her, alongside acting returning <strong>of</strong>ficers for parliamentary<br />
elections, to put himself forward for designation as the<br />
regional returning <strong>of</strong>ficer by the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State.<br />
Amendment 80 provides for the GLA to place the<br />
services <strong>of</strong> its employees at the disposal <strong>of</strong> the GLRO.<br />
If he is appointed as regional returning <strong>of</strong>ficer, this<br />
would apply only if the GLRO is appointed as regional<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer for the London region. To speak <strong>of</strong>f<br />
script for a moment, I should like to place on record<br />
my admiration for the work done by those who have
1125 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Organophosphates<br />
1126<br />
been running GLA elections for some years now. I<br />
should explain that the funding that the GLRO would<br />
receive under Section 6(6) <strong>of</strong> the 2002 Act if he were<br />
appointed would be calculated on the same basis as<br />
that for regional returning <strong>of</strong>ficers in other regions and<br />
that for the RRO appointed for London at the June 2009<br />
European elections. In other words, the GLRO will<br />
not be treated any different from other regional returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers.<br />
A couple <strong>of</strong> days ago I saw briefing from the<br />
Electoral Commission which I understand supports<br />
this amendment. The commission says that the experience<br />
that the GLRO gains in carrying out the role may<br />
mean that he or she is best placed to ensure the<br />
efficient running <strong>of</strong> the European parliamentary elections<br />
in the London region and that he or she should<br />
therefore be appointed in the way that the amendment<br />
provides. I beg to move.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, this amendment seeks<br />
to provide that the Greater London returning <strong>of</strong>ficer<br />
should be eligible for appointment as a regional<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer for European parliamentary elections.<br />
The Government see merits in the proposed change<br />
and I am pleased that parliamentary counsel and<br />
Ministry <strong>of</strong> Justice <strong>of</strong>ficials have been able to assist<br />
the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, in the drafting <strong>of</strong><br />
the amendment. The GLRO is the chief executive<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Greater London Authority. The GLRO leads<br />
an experienced elections team which has previously<br />
run successful GLA Assembly and London mayoral<br />
elections.<br />
At European parliamentary elections, regional<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficers are appointed to each UK electoral<br />
region and they are responsible for the conduct <strong>of</strong> the<br />
election in their region. Under Section 6 <strong>of</strong> the European<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>ary Elections Act 2002, in England and<br />
Wales the RRO is to be a person who is an acting<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer for parliamentary elections and is<br />
designated as an RRO by an order <strong>of</strong> the Secretary <strong>of</strong><br />
State. The GLRO is not able to be appointed as an<br />
RRO under these provisions as he is not an acting<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer for parliamentary elections. These<br />
amendments change that position by amending the<br />
European <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Elections Act 2002 to allow<br />
the GLRO to be designated as an RRO. It also provides<br />
that if the GLRO is appointed as RRO for London, he<br />
may call on the assistance <strong>of</strong> employees <strong>of</strong> the GLA to<br />
help him carry out his duties as RRO in addition to<br />
the London boroughs in the London region.<br />
There is no reason to doubt that the European<br />
elections in June 2009 were effectively administered in<br />
London under the existing statutory framework. However,<br />
the GLRO has experience <strong>of</strong> running London-wide<br />
elections and the proposed change would widen the<br />
scope <strong>of</strong> suitable persons who may be considered as<br />
the RRO for the London region in future European<br />
elections and make it easier to recruit for the post. The<br />
Government are therefore content to accept the<br />
amendment.<br />
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am extremely grateful<br />
for the acceptance <strong>of</strong> the amendments and the recognition<br />
<strong>of</strong> the experience, expertise, enthusiasm and dedication<br />
<strong>of</strong> those who have been running the elections.<br />
Amendment 79 agreed.<br />
Amendment 80<br />
Moved by Baroness Hamwee<br />
80: Clause 24, page 25, line 46, at end insert—<br />
“( ) After subsection (8) there is inserted—<br />
“(9) Where functions are conferred on the proper <strong>of</strong>ficer <strong>of</strong><br />
the Greater London Authority under subsection (5) in relation to<br />
the London electoral region, the Authority must place the services<br />
<strong>of</strong> its employees at his disposal for the purpose <strong>of</strong> assisting him in<br />
the discharge <strong>of</strong> those functions.””<br />
Amendment 80 agreed.<br />
Consideration on Report adjourned until not before<br />
8.30 pm.<br />
Organophosphates<br />
Question for Short Debate<br />
7.30 pm<br />
Tabled By The Countess <strong>of</strong> Mar<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they<br />
will reconvene the Interdepartmental Group on<br />
Organophosphates (the Carden Committee).<br />
The Countess <strong>of</strong> Mar: My Lords, I declare an<br />
interest. I was poisoned by organophosphate sheep<br />
dip in 1989. In fact, it is almost exactly 20 years since I<br />
was doused while helping to dip our sheep. Prior to<br />
that, I had been chronically exposed to a variety <strong>of</strong><br />
OPs in common use on farms and in homes. At the<br />
time we were led to believe that OPs were safe if used<br />
as instructed. It was not until 1991, after a long<br />
process <strong>of</strong> elimination and observation after further<br />
exposures, that the cause <strong>of</strong> my illness became clear to<br />
me and to my GP. Contrary to received belief, the<br />
signs and symptoms <strong>of</strong> poisoning were not temporary<br />
and, for me, the effects are still evident today. I am<br />
extremely fortunate in that I have supportive medical<br />
practitioners whose main objective in life is not to<br />
poison me further.<br />
Sheep dipping once or twice yearly in the UK was<br />
compulsory from 1975 to 1992 as part <strong>of</strong> the regime to<br />
control sheep scab. OPs replaced organochlorines from<br />
the early 1980s after the latter were found to persist in<br />
the environment. It was in 1992 that the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Tyler, then Paul Tyler MP, and I independently<br />
started to ask questions about the safety <strong>of</strong> using OPs<br />
as veterinary medicines and as both agricultural and<br />
domestic pesticides. Indeed, I almost said, “Welcome<br />
to the ‘Mar and Tyler Show’” because we have been<br />
together on this for so long, but perhaps I should say<br />
the ‘Mar, Tyler and Rooker Show’ because the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Rooker, has also been involved for a long<br />
time. In 1992, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and I first<br />
met John Gummer, then the Minister <strong>of</strong> Agriculture,<br />
to ask him to apply a moratorium on OP sheep dips.<br />
By this time it was becoming clear that OPs were<br />
affecting a significant number <strong>of</strong> individuals who were<br />
using them or were inadvertently exposed to them. At<br />
first, the Government assured us that these products<br />
were safe and that they presented no risk to human
1127 Organophosphates<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Organophosphates<br />
1128<br />
[THE COUNTESS OF MAR]<br />
health. Since then there has been progress and their<br />
acute effects are readily acknowledged. Many OPs<br />
have been removed from the market, while stringent<br />
instructions now apply to those that are still in use.<br />
But there is still no recognition <strong>of</strong> their chronic central<br />
and autonomic nervous system effects.<br />
Following close on the heels <strong>of</strong> the sheep farmers<br />
and other agricultural workers were some Gulf War<br />
veterans who <strong>report</strong>ed very similar adverse health<br />
effects following medication with pyridostigmine bromide,<br />
a carbamate closely related to OPs, and exposure to<br />
OP nerve gas and pesticide sprays. Despite the fact<br />
that the US Research Advisory Committee on Gulf<br />
War Illnesses recently concluded that some 25 per cent<br />
<strong>of</strong> Gulf War veterans—25 per cent <strong>of</strong> more than 6,000<br />
people—are suffering the effects <strong>of</strong> OP poisoning, the<br />
British Government persist in their denial that these<br />
same exposures have had any effect on our troops.<br />
More recently, airline pilots and crew have <strong>report</strong>ed ill<br />
effects following exposure to cabin air contaminated<br />
by leaking engine oil that produces very toxic OPs<br />
when heated.<br />
In all these groups, scientific research has shown<br />
consistently that there may be a relationship between<br />
long-term, low-level exposure to organophosphates<br />
and the development <strong>of</strong> neurobehavioural problems.<br />
The first study <strong>of</strong> sheep farmers was in 1991, and the<br />
latest was published this year. As there have been very<br />
few <strong>report</strong>s <strong>of</strong> adverse reactions to OP sheep dips in<br />
recent years, it is fairly safe to assume that the problems<br />
are persistent. It is interesting that Dr Sarah Mackenzie<br />
Ross, who conducted the DEFRA-funded research<br />
entitled “Neuropsychological and Psychiatric Functioning<br />
in Sheep Farmers Exposed to Organophosphate<br />
Pesticides”, had to eliminate 60 per cent <strong>of</strong> possible<br />
subjects, all <strong>of</strong> whom were sheep farmers exposed to<br />
OPs, because they had other conditions. Among those<br />
eliminated were people with a history <strong>of</strong> acute exposure;<br />
those with a neurological condition such as Parkinson’s<br />
disease or multiple sclerosis; heart conditions and lung<br />
disease, all <strong>of</strong> which are associated with possible toxic<br />
causation. This means that those in whom she did find<br />
neuropsychiatric problems were likely to have been<br />
those who had the lowest exposure to OPs.<br />
When the Labour Party came into Government in<br />
1997, Ministers from all the departments involved<br />
agreed that an interdepartmental group <strong>of</strong> high-level<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficials should be formed to <strong>report</strong> to Ministers on<br />
the continuing public debate over whether OPs damage<br />
human health. This was the Official Group on<br />
Organophosphates, also known as the Carden Committee,<br />
although I understand that Mr Carden has since retired.<br />
The group <strong>report</strong>ed in 1998 and a number <strong>of</strong> its<br />
recommendations, including a research programme,<br />
were implemented, for which I am grateful. I understand<br />
that the group has met occasionally since then, the last<br />
time being 26 June 2007. As the minutes <strong>of</strong> its meetings<br />
are not published, we have no means <strong>of</strong> knowing the<br />
detail <strong>of</strong> their discussions.<br />
What is clear is that the science has moved on<br />
considerably since 1998. The Carden <strong>report</strong> gives at<br />
paragraph 2.2 a simple explanation <strong>of</strong> the manner in<br />
which inhibitors <strong>of</strong> acetylcholinesterase function,<br />
stating that:<br />
“In the case <strong>of</strong> most OPs and all medicinal and pesticidal<br />
anticholinesterase OP products the effect is either reversible or<br />
recoverable”.<br />
It also reminds us that some non-OPs are<br />
anticholinesterases and that they have similar toxicity<br />
to anticholinesterase OPs, to which I shall come later.<br />
There appears to be a genetic susceptibility to OP<br />
poisoning. It is recognised that cytochrome P450<br />
enzymes, Paraoxonase-1 and butyrylcholinesterase<br />
play important parts in the detoxification <strong>of</strong><br />
anticholinesterases. It has also been recognised for<br />
some time that there are flaws in the traditional methods<br />
<strong>of</strong> assessing exposure to OPs by measuring metabolites<br />
for specific OPs in the urine or measuring levels <strong>of</strong> red<br />
blood cell acetylcholinesterase. The scientific paper<br />
Identification and Characterisation <strong>of</strong> Biomarkers <strong>of</strong><br />
Organophosphorus (OP) Exposure in Humans by Kim<br />
et al, 2009, details,<br />
“the development <strong>of</strong> rapid protocols for extraction <strong>of</strong> the target<br />
biomarker protein from a sample, digesting the enzyme and<br />
identifying the OP modified peptide by mass spectrometry”.<br />
The authors go on to state:<br />
“We feel these methods are optimal for filling the void <strong>of</strong><br />
diagnosing and treating long-term exposures to several ubiquitous<br />
OPs”.<br />
In the UK, the Government have funded a few<br />
neuropsychological function studies and epidemiological<br />
studies <strong>of</strong> shepherds exposed to OPs. None <strong>of</strong> these<br />
has gone into the detail <strong>of</strong> the US research on sick<br />
Gulf veterans. The US neurocognitive studies found<br />
similar significantly poorer performance results on<br />
veterans who had been exposed to anticholinesterase<br />
chemicals to those conducted in the UK on shepherds.<br />
Six out <strong>of</strong> seven projects that evaluated brain structure<br />
and function using highly specialised equipment found<br />
significant differences between veterans with Gulf War<br />
illnesses and healthy controls, although they qualify<br />
their results by stating that additional research is<br />
needed. I could go on, and those interested in the<br />
detail will find it in the US RAC <strong>report</strong> <strong>of</strong> last November.<br />
In view <strong>of</strong> the fact that providing scientific pro<strong>of</strong> has<br />
been a virtual impossibility for those who are suffering<br />
the effects <strong>of</strong> OPs, may I ask the Minister how many<br />
<strong>of</strong> the most recent developments have been accepted<br />
in the UK?<br />
I cannot express adequately the effect that the somewhat<br />
apathetic attitude <strong>of</strong> those who are responsible for<br />
ensuring our health and safety over the past 20 years<br />
has had. By failing to study individuals who <strong>report</strong><br />
symptoms after more than a minute exposure to<br />
OPs in the initial stages and by failing to conduct<br />
longitudinal studies, they may well have exposed many<br />
sick people to at least a poor quality <strong>of</strong> life or at worst<br />
an early death. My own experience has taught me<br />
that there is an almost total lack <strong>of</strong> understanding <strong>of</strong><br />
the life-threatening heart and lung function damage<br />
and <strong>of</strong> the effects <strong>of</strong> administering drugs that act on<br />
the acetylcholine system. The Health and Safety<br />
Executive’s leaflet MS17, Medical aspects <strong>of</strong> work-related<br />
exposures to organophosphates, warns <strong>of</strong> the effects <strong>of</strong><br />
repeated absorption <strong>of</strong> small doses <strong>of</strong> OPs. However,<br />
I can find no warning to the medical pr<strong>of</strong>ession <strong>of</strong> the<br />
effects <strong>of</strong> administering any <strong>of</strong> a wide range <strong>of</strong> drugs<br />
that may have a similar action. First-line drugs for<br />
bladder incontinence, asthmatic symptoms and
1129 Organophosphates<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Organophosphates<br />
1130<br />
glaucoma are all in this group and the first two are, to<br />
my knowledge, also caused by OP damage to the<br />
autonomic system.<br />
Is the Minister able to say how much research<br />
has been conducted into the effects that drugs which<br />
act on the acetylcholine system have on patients who<br />
have <strong>report</strong>ed illness following exposure to<br />
organophosphate pesticides? If he knows <strong>of</strong> none,<br />
does he agree that this is an important consideration<br />
for a large number <strong>of</strong> agricultural workers, Gulf War<br />
veterans and aircrew? Should this not be an urgent<br />
consideration?<br />
I have made a brief outline <strong>of</strong> some <strong>of</strong> the reasons<br />
why I believe that the Official Group on<br />
Organophosphates should reconvene. I have barely<br />
touched on recent developments in this field. I have<br />
asked that it should give the matter priority. I also ask<br />
that on this occasion it produces a <strong>report</strong> on the lines<br />
<strong>of</strong> its 1998 <strong>report</strong>.<br />
7.41 pm<br />
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I support the noble Countess.<br />
Basically, the simple answer to her question should be<br />
yes. I am not going to go into all the background<br />
details because I am not as up-to-date as I was when I<br />
was one <strong>of</strong> the Ministers responsible in 1997-99 and<br />
then again from 2006-08 in one department, but the<br />
fact that this issue goes across departments is the<br />
central point that I wish to make.<br />
As the noble Countess has said, there has been<br />
progress. The lack <strong>of</strong> exposure today is a result <strong>of</strong><br />
the work that has been done by the industry,<br />
pushed by our <strong>of</strong>ficials in the Veterinary Medicines<br />
Directorate, in producing better containers from<br />
which people could not by accident, irrespective <strong>of</strong><br />
negligence, be contaminated. There is no question that<br />
this was a serious issue in the past. However, this<br />
means that no new people from farming are coming<br />
into the system for the doctors and the scientists to<br />
look at. As I say, the problem transcends that, but<br />
there has been stagnation.<br />
When we considered this problem in MAFF from<br />
very early on in 1997 and 1998, I had discussions with<br />
the then Minister, Jack Cunningham, who, with his<br />
background as a chemist, took it very seriously. We<br />
picked up from other departments that there were<br />
issues across government in regard to chemicals. Richard<br />
Carden—who, as the noble Countess said, has retired—<br />
would take some pleasure in seeing the Carden Committee<br />
reconvened. He was a first-class civil servant, in my<br />
experience, at MAFF and he chaired a large Whitehall<br />
committee which covered many more departments<br />
than one would imagine. Obviously, as I moved around<br />
Whitehall I did not keep up to date over the years. I<br />
regret that the committee’s deliberations have not been<br />
made public and I can see no good reason for that.<br />
In that period <strong>of</strong> time, we had probably three<br />
scientific advisers, and now we have a new Government<br />
Chief Scientific Adviser. This problem should be the<br />
first thing on Pr<strong>of</strong>essor Bennington’s desk and he<br />
should look at it to see what the current situation is.<br />
There are grounds for considering it. I have never seen<br />
a satisfactory answer to the issue <strong>of</strong> the airline pilots<br />
and the doubts that have been raised about it. I do not<br />
want to be controversial but, if one looks at the big<br />
picture from the outside—at the nature <strong>of</strong> the doubts<br />
about organophosphates, at the issue <strong>of</strong> Factor VIII,<br />
dirty blood and blood products, and at the issue <strong>of</strong><br />
Gulf War syndrome from the first Gulf War—one<br />
gets the impression <strong>of</strong> a natural reluctance <strong>of</strong> the<br />
centre to investigate when these issues arise and a<br />
pattern starts to be formed. That is the point that I<br />
want to make.<br />
In a way, the Carden Committee and what was put<br />
together could overcome and answer some <strong>of</strong> these<br />
issues. They go across Whitehall departments. I do not<br />
want the Government to be in the dock over them but<br />
a pattern has emerged over a period—there may be<br />
others <strong>of</strong> which I am unaware—that there is a reluctance<br />
to investigate. Why? “Oh, because there are no new<br />
cases; because <strong>of</strong> the issue <strong>of</strong> compensation; because<br />
the science is not quite clear”. Given what has happened<br />
in the <strong>United</strong> States in the first 100 days, if these<br />
matters were put to President Obama I can envisage<br />
some executive action coming forth. Not by overdoing<br />
the science or taking the scientists’ view, but by giving the<br />
issue a push, a spurt, to ensure that we can put it to<br />
bed.<br />
There is plenty <strong>of</strong> evidence—I do not think complete<br />
solutions will ever be found—from those who have<br />
been injured, if I can put it that way, in the farming<br />
industry, from those with Gulf War syndrome and<br />
from the issue <strong>of</strong> the fuel used in aircraft to ensure that<br />
the doubts about the use <strong>of</strong> organophosphates remain.<br />
These are matters worthy <strong>of</strong> investigation. In the way<br />
that it does, Whitehall did some joined-up thinking on<br />
this. There was genuine joined-up working in the way<br />
in which the Carden Committee was put together and<br />
worked. I pay tribute to that and I have no problem<br />
with it.<br />
I was on the receiving end over a 10-year period <strong>of</strong><br />
delegations which included the noble Lord, Lord Taylor,<br />
and the noble Countess, Lady Mar. I said to <strong>of</strong>ficials<br />
on one occasion—I think it was in 2006 or early<br />
2007—after the noble colleagues had left, “One day I<br />
will be a Back-Bencher and she is my model”. That is<br />
true. The noble Countess has shown great tenaciousness<br />
in pushing this issue—it is not a vested interest, although<br />
she has been affected in many ways—getting to grips<br />
with it and not accepting no for an answer. In this<br />
case, Whitehall and the Government reached out.<br />
I do not know whether it is time to call for Carden,<br />
who is well away into retirement—I shall not mention<br />
what part <strong>of</strong> the country he is in but I had a nice letter<br />
from him when I left government, so I know he keeps a<br />
watch on what is going on—but I hope the lawyers will<br />
not make the final decision; it is important that it is<br />
made on the grounds <strong>of</strong> science and health. The<br />
Government have a public responsibility and a duty <strong>of</strong><br />
care in all these issues. In allowing products onto the<br />
market, however they are used, the Government have<br />
a duty <strong>of</strong> care. It may be that people will say, “We have<br />
solved all the problems” but, nevertheless, there are<br />
too many unanswered questions. It is probably time,<br />
given the Whitehall committee structure, genuinely to<br />
say to the noble Countess tonight that the answer to<br />
her question should be yes.
1131 Organophosphates<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Organophosphates<br />
1132<br />
7.48 pm<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am delighted to follow the<br />
noble Countess and the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. We<br />
have over many years worked together on this issue<br />
and I congratulate the noble Countess, in particular,<br />
on her extraordinary mastery <strong>of</strong> the facts. My only<br />
concern about her case is that she sometimes thinks<br />
OP has affected her brain power. However, there is no<br />
evidence <strong>of</strong> that in the way in which she contributes to<br />
the debates <strong>of</strong> your Lordships’ House.<br />
I should put on record that the right honourable<br />
Michael Meacher, who has also been a Minister in the<br />
department principally responsible for this issue, has<br />
been a doughty campaigner, as has the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Rooker, in seeking justice for those who suffer<br />
from OP poisoning.<br />
As has already been mentioned, since 1992 and<br />
through to 2005 I convened an all-party parliamentary<br />
group containing Members <strong>of</strong> your Lordships’ House<br />
and Members <strong>of</strong> the other place, from all parties and<br />
from all parts <strong>of</strong> the country, to deal with this issue.<br />
The problem originally arose with sheep farmers—in<br />
my case sheep farmers in the south-west, who I<br />
represented—and every improvement in the controls<br />
placed on the use <strong>of</strong> OPs and every time more protective<br />
measures were placed on their use and on the people<br />
who were going to use them was, effectively, an admission<br />
that the previous arrangements were inadequate. Of<br />
course, the previous arrangements were forced upon<br />
sheep farmers by government decree. It was not like<br />
thalidomide, where people voluntarily took on a particular<br />
form <strong>of</strong> treatment and then there were difficulties.<br />
Sheep farmers had to use OPs—twice a year, under<br />
the original arrangements. The Government, as well<br />
as those responsible for manufacture, had not just a<br />
moral but a legal responsibility for the use <strong>of</strong><br />
organophosphates.<br />
As has been said, and this is a good moment to<br />
make this point again, there is a responsibility for<br />
joined-up government. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker—at<br />
the instigation, I would like to think, <strong>of</strong> others outside—<br />
took up that challenge and made sure that it happened,<br />
and the Carden Committee was the effective vehicle<br />
for that purpose. It was not down to the Ministry <strong>of</strong><br />
Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or, as it became,<br />
Defra. It was not down to the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence, in<br />
the case <strong>of</strong> the 1991-92 Gulf War—I should perhaps<br />
declare a non-pecuniary interest as a member <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Royal British Legion Gulf War Group. It was not<br />
down to the Department for Transport, in the case <strong>of</strong><br />
the BAe146 aircraft that has proved to be most<br />
controversial in this case, where the bleeding into the<br />
cabin <strong>of</strong> some <strong>of</strong> the OP lubricants in the engine<br />
seems to have caused huge problems and considerable<br />
risk. Not a single one <strong>of</strong> those departments can carry<br />
the can for the difficulties that have occurred, because<br />
every one <strong>of</strong> them had some responsibility. Hence the<br />
significance <strong>of</strong> the interdepartmental committee to<br />
which the noble Countess’s Question refers—that was<br />
our hope for joined-up government. Now it has not<br />
sat for some 24 months, so what is going on? Is there<br />
any joined-up government at all now?<br />
The Carden Committee should be reconstituted<br />
because there are urgent questions now across government.<br />
In the case <strong>of</strong> the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence, there has been,<br />
as the noble Countess said, an inaccurate response to<br />
the research that has been undertaken in the <strong>United</strong><br />
States, a point that I shall come back to. It is urgent to<br />
look at the implications for the British troops who<br />
were there serving on our behalf, and who suffered as<br />
a result <strong>of</strong> their service in the Gulf.<br />
In the case <strong>of</strong> Defra there is an urgent responsibility<br />
to ensure that proper funding is put into the remaining<br />
research proposals, particularly those that are under<br />
the auspices <strong>of</strong> Dr Sarah Mackenzie Ross, who is the<br />
principal researcher in this field. As the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Rooker, implies, every day there are people who<br />
should be analysed for this purpose but who may no<br />
longer be with us.<br />
Then there is the issue <strong>of</strong> transport. It was not just<br />
the BAe146, although the problem seemed to occur<br />
particularly on that aircraft; there are wider issues<br />
there. As yet, thank goodness, there has not been a<br />
disaster, but there could easily have been one if the<br />
impact <strong>of</strong> these chemicals—which, after all, started<br />
their life as part <strong>of</strong> the Nazis’ war effort—had continued<br />
to be sprayed around aircraft cabins and cockpits in<br />
aerosol form. The potential for disaster is considerable.<br />
My bitter and, I fear, rather cynical experience,<br />
after 17 or 18 years <strong>of</strong> campaigning on this issue, is<br />
that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, seems to be right:<br />
there is a built-in systemic lethargy that means that<br />
eventually, if you string out the research programme<br />
long enough, which is what the manufacturers <strong>of</strong> these<br />
products want to do, either the OP products can be<br />
replaced by something else so that there is no longer a<br />
commercial problem for the manufacturers; compensation<br />
can be avoided because you continually block liability<br />
claims; or, frankly, the victims die. Understandably, it<br />
is that lethargy, stringing out the process, that the<br />
victims feel is going on in Whitehall. It would be a<br />
tragedy if the considerable efforts made by the noble<br />
Lord and others in Whitehall—Michael Meacher being<br />
another—to try to create a genuine link-up and real<br />
joined-up government came to a full stop, simply<br />
because Mr Richard Carden had retired.<br />
I hope that the Minister will be able to give us a<br />
cast-iron assurance that the committee will be reconstituted<br />
and will give practical expression to the determination<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Government to get to the bottom <strong>of</strong> this<br />
problem. Again, I underline the point made by the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Rooker: imagine if this were in the<br />
<strong>United</strong> States under the present President. In fact, we<br />
do not have to imagine; a new imperative has been put<br />
behind the research programme into OPs by President<br />
Obama. Let us therefore take something from across<br />
the Atlantic that we can put to good use in this<br />
country. Let us have some joined-up government here.<br />
I warmly support the noble Countess.<br />
I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker,<br />
has rejoined the human race by coming <strong>of</strong>f the government<br />
Front Bench and is now able to use his persuasive<br />
powers on his colleagues. I hope that we will have<br />
evidence in a minute that he is as persuasive as he ever<br />
was in the Government.
1133 Organophosphates<br />
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Organophosphates<br />
1134<br />
7.55 pm<br />
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I do not think that the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Rooker, ever left the human race, which is<br />
one reason why he was such a good Minister.<br />
I thank the noble Countess, Lady Mar, for initiating<br />
this short debate as part <strong>of</strong> a campaign that has been<br />
going on since long before I came to this House. With<br />
the noble Countess, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and<br />
my noble friend Lord Tyler, I feel as though I am<br />
among some <strong>of</strong> the political giants as far as this issue<br />
is concerned. My interest in OPs, particularly sheep<br />
dips, came about a bit less than 10 years ago when<br />
Chris Davies MEP took me up a track on the Saddleworth<br />
moors to see Mrs Brenda Sutcliffe, an equally doughty<br />
campaigner on OPs in a rather different way, bashing<br />
away on what was then her manual typewriter. She is<br />
still there and still campaigning, and long may she do<br />
so as long as this issue needs resolving.<br />
I shall refer to the most recent piece <strong>of</strong> research on<br />
OPs and sheep dips, which comes from Dr Sarah<br />
Mackenzie Ross <strong>of</strong> University College London on<br />
behalf <strong>of</strong> Defra’s project VM02302 on which, over the<br />
past six or seven years, the department has spent<br />
nearly £500,000. The project was mooted earlier; it<br />
started in August 2004 and ended in 2008, last year.<br />
The purpose <strong>of</strong> the study was to determine whether<br />
low-level exposure to organophosphates caused disabling<br />
neurological or psychiatric disease in a small sub-group<br />
<strong>of</strong> exposed persons. The significance <strong>of</strong> this project is<br />
that it is concentrated on low-level exposure over a<br />
period <strong>of</strong> time rather than on a higher level and the<br />
more acute problems presented by most <strong>of</strong> the people<br />
who have come forward as victims <strong>of</strong> OPs.<br />
The participants in the study—there were originally<br />
160 but there ended up being 132—are working farmers<br />
and farmers who retired on the grounds <strong>of</strong> ill health<br />
and who have a history <strong>of</strong> exposure to sheep dip. They<br />
were compared with a control group, a comparison<br />
group, <strong>of</strong> rural police workers, in an attempt to find<br />
similar people in the community who had not been<br />
particularly exposed to organophosphate pesticides.<br />
That group began as 80 but ended up as 79. The<br />
participants were recruited from the south-west and<br />
the north <strong>of</strong> England. My understanding is that the<br />
study has been completed—certainly the executive<br />
summary has been published—and that we are waiting<br />
for the full <strong>report</strong> to be peer-reviewed. Perhaps the<br />
Minister will confirm that. It is with Defra and we are<br />
waiting to see what Defra is going to do about it.<br />
The results <strong>of</strong> this study <strong>of</strong> low-level exposure were<br />
that,<br />
“A range <strong>of</strong> emotional, physical and cognitive problems were<br />
identified in agricultural workers with a history <strong>of</strong> low level<br />
exposure to OPs. In terms <strong>of</strong> cognitive function, general intellectual<br />
ability, reasoning, visio-spatial and verbal ability were relatively<br />
well preserved, but agricultural workers obtained lower scores on<br />
tests <strong>of</strong> response speed, working, verbal and visual memory,<br />
mental flexibility and fine motor control, than non-exposed controls”.<br />
The <strong>report</strong> also compared these results with the general<br />
population and found a similar difference. The <strong>report</strong><br />
says that,<br />
“a number <strong>of</strong> significant correlations were observed between<br />
duration <strong>of</strong> exposure and verbal and visual memory, verbal<br />
ability, strategy making and fine motor control. Although weak,<br />
they were in the expected direction, consistent with findings from<br />
the group analyses and consistent with study hypotheses.”<br />
I am not sure that I understand these words, but I<br />
think they mean that there was a correlation and the<br />
findings were significant. The recommendation is that<br />
follow-up studies should be carried out to determine<br />
whether symptoms persist over time, improve or worsen,<br />
and to look into recommended treatment protocols<br />
for individuals who <strong>report</strong> chronic ill health following<br />
exposure to OPs. This is one reason why the <strong>of</strong>ficial<br />
committee should be reconvened. It is suggested that<br />
there is a need for prospective treatment trials. That is<br />
from Dr Mackenzie Ross.<br />
Defra has responded. I have looked at the Defra<br />
website and failed to find it, but that may be because I<br />
am not very good at negotiating websites, or it may<br />
not be there. I read in the Western Morning News that<br />
a Defra spokesman said:<br />
“The results <strong>of</strong> this <strong>report</strong> do not definitively demonstrate<br />
that organophosphates cause chronic ill-health, but suggest that a<br />
relationship may exist”—<br />
I think that is what Dr Mackenzie Ross is saying—<br />
“It is not possible to draw conclusions on the basis <strong>of</strong> one<br />
<strong>report</strong> without considering a wider context <strong>of</strong> published data on<br />
OPs and human health”.<br />
That seems to be a fairly weak response from Defra, <strong>of</strong><br />
the kind that previous speakers have suggested has<br />
been forthcoming over the years. It seems to me,<br />
again, to be a reason why the committee should be<br />
reconvened and should meet to consider these matters.<br />
Defra continues to say that,<br />
“our advice to farmers remains to take all necessary protections<br />
including protective clothing and to follow instructions supplied”.<br />
That is all very well for people who are around now<br />
but it does not really tackle the problem <strong>of</strong> people who<br />
were exposed in the past. I read in my exciting weekly<br />
reading, the Farmers Guardian, a quote from<br />
Dr Mackenzie Ross herself:<br />
“The worry is that there might be a slow cumulative effect on<br />
people. We have got no idea how many people out there are<br />
suffering … There was this idea that low exposure is OK but this<br />
research would suggest otherwise. We think it is more dangerous<br />
than previously thought”.<br />
There follows the same quote from Defra, suggesting<br />
that it would rather not do very much.<br />
This latest <strong>report</strong> is important, partly because it confirms<br />
that people have been suffering from OPs, but particularly<br />
because it looks at the people who have been subjected<br />
to low-level exposure, as opposed to those who have<br />
been made particularly poorly by a high level <strong>of</strong><br />
exposure. This is clearly new evidence and clearly a<br />
new <strong>report</strong>. I ask the Minister, first, what will Defra do<br />
with this <strong>report</strong>? What is its response to it, other than<br />
trying to tell the papers that everything is really okay?<br />
Secondly, in particular, is it not sensible to put it to a<br />
reconvened <strong>of</strong>ficial committee?<br />
8.04 pm<br />
Lord Taylor <strong>of</strong> Holbeach: My Lords, I declare an<br />
interest as a farmer and grower. We use chemicals in<br />
pest and disease control; I will make observations on<br />
this in my speech. No one can doubt the commitment<br />
<strong>of</strong> the noble Countess to making sure that the use and<br />
effect <strong>of</strong> organophosphates remains on the agenda.<br />
She should be thanked for securing this debate and for<br />
the skill with which she has presented her case. She<br />
speaks powerfully from a personal experience that has<br />
been extremely distressing. Indeed, all noble Lords
1135 Organophosphates<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Organophosphates<br />
1136<br />
[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH]<br />
have spoken with passion on this issue and I am sure<br />
that the Minister will be keen to respond and provide<br />
the reassurance that noble Lords rightly seek.<br />
I can speak only on the use <strong>of</strong> OPs in agriculture,<br />
but I know that concerns can and do stretch into other<br />
areas, which have been widely explored in this evening’s<br />
debate. However, I can speak with some authority,<br />
since not only are OPs used and recommended as a<br />
vital sheep dip, they have in the past been used to dip<br />
bulbs prior to commercial planting. In the 1960s I<br />
personally sterilised bulbs using the nematicide Phagol,<br />
which was withdrawn around the middle <strong>of</strong> that decade.<br />
By good fortune, no one—as far as I know—suffered<br />
any ill-effects from its use in this way, although a<br />
MAFF employee at Kirton EHS died from mercury<br />
poisoning, which was part and parcel <strong>of</strong> a similar<br />
operation. Later, in the 1980s, Nemaphos was widely<br />
used for similar purposes here and in Holland on tulip<br />
bulbs. It, too, was withdrawn. Again, no ill-effects<br />
were <strong>report</strong>ed, but environmental considerations and<br />
ground water contamination led to its ceasing to be<br />
available.<br />
The work <strong>of</strong> the noble Countess in battling on this<br />
issue is well known, but we need to be careful not to<br />
draw the wrong conclusions from this particular issue.<br />
I am sure that the Minister will confirm that the<br />
Government remain concerned at the change in the<br />
definition <strong>of</strong> pesticides from risk-based to hazard-based.<br />
This, regrettably, has been introduced as a European<br />
directive, with regulations to follow. This will cut <strong>of</strong>f<br />
many vital products. This is particularly true for<br />
horticultural growers, <strong>of</strong> whom I am one. Their permitted<br />
use is dependent on <strong>of</strong>f-label approval—testing that<br />
manufacturers are not necessarily prepared to pay for.<br />
I cannot emphasise strongly enough the role that can<br />
be played by horticulture in reviving the productive<br />
capacity <strong>of</strong> the sector.<br />
I may have strayed beyond the strict definition <strong>of</strong><br />
this debate, but it is important that the principle that<br />
we apply to organophosphates is the same: decisions<br />
should be based on the science. There is a further<br />
point to be deduced from the general to the particular.<br />
Any use <strong>of</strong> chemicals requires the proper respect <strong>of</strong><br />
the user. At all times operators need to be disciplined<br />
in following correct procedures and ensuring their<br />
own safety. The most common way for humans to<br />
come into contact with OPs, as has been explained in<br />
this debate, is through sheep dipping. The noble Lord,<br />
Lord Tyler, explained fully how this policy came into<br />
effect. The Government’s policy towards its uses takes<br />
into account factors including the environmental effects<br />
and effect on human health <strong>of</strong> organophosphates. It is<br />
good to see the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, in his place<br />
and contributing to this debate. We have all missed<br />
him, but welcome him back and are pleased that he is<br />
participating in his usual robust fashion.<br />
Concern about the use <strong>of</strong> organophosphates led to<br />
the commissioning <strong>of</strong> the interdepartmental group on<br />
organophosphates, known as the Carden Committee.<br />
It drew representatives from several government<br />
departments, including the Department <strong>of</strong> Health and<br />
the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence, as well as representatives<br />
from the veterinary field, health and safety, the Food<br />
Standards Agency and the Office for Science and<br />
Innovation, as it was then known. It has not met since<br />
June 2007, which was two years ago. As the noble<br />
Countess said, many questions remain unanswered. I<br />
can think <strong>of</strong> several. Has any assessment been made <strong>of</strong><br />
the effectiveness <strong>of</strong> the Control <strong>of</strong> Substances Hazardous<br />
to Health Regulations 2000—or COSHH in short—when<br />
it comes to risk assessments prior to sheep dipping?<br />
What further work has been undertaken on finding<br />
alternatives to using organophosphate-based products<br />
in farming?<br />
Further to these questions, I hope that the Minister<br />
will be able to reassure me on two others. How many<br />
<strong>of</strong> the “pour ons” now used in sheep treatment for<br />
ecto parasites contain organophosphates? Are the<br />
Government satisfied that spreading <strong>of</strong> waste dip on<br />
agricultural ground presents no residual hazard? If<br />
ever an issue could benefit from transparency, it is this<br />
one. That is why I trust that the Minister will be able to<br />
give a positive answer to the noble Countess’s Question.<br />
8.10 pm<br />
The Minister <strong>of</strong> State, Department for Environment,<br />
Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham): My<br />
Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have<br />
contributed to this debate, particularly the noble Countess,<br />
Lady Mar, whom we all respect for her committed<br />
work over a considerable period on this very important<br />
issue. I discussed these issues with her when for a short<br />
while I held responsibility for the transport brief in<br />
this House. I was well aware <strong>of</strong> the strength <strong>of</strong> her<br />
arguments and I did my best, from a more limited<br />
position than my noble friend Lord Rooker, to see<br />
how we could make progress on those issues.<br />
A number <strong>of</strong> speakers suggested that the Government<br />
have been tardy in responding to these issues out <strong>of</strong> an<br />
unwillingness to commit resources, or from anxiety<br />
about compensation that may be payable. Those are<br />
unfair charges. The issue is straightforward, as the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Taylor, emphasised; namely, that we<br />
must make progress on the basis <strong>of</strong> the scientific<br />
evidence. As I understand it, the problem is that we do<br />
not have a secure enough scientific base to know<br />
exactly what to do. That is not to say that we are not<br />
aware <strong>of</strong> studies such as the one to which the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Greaves, referred. After all, that was<br />
commissioned by Defra. I am sorry that the noble<br />
Lord did not find the response on the website; I shall<br />
give it now. The researcher, Dr Sarah Mackenzie Ross,<br />
found that the results suggested there may be a relationship<br />
between long-term, low level exposure to OPs and the<br />
development <strong>of</strong> neural behavioural problems. This is<br />
an important piece <strong>of</strong> research but we have commissioned<br />
two other research <strong>report</strong>s as a result <strong>of</strong> COT’s work<br />
in 1999 and we await their publication. We cannot<br />
publish them yet because they have not been subjected<br />
to peer review and proper scientific vetting and analysis.<br />
All these <strong>report</strong>s, and our response to them, will be<br />
produced in the very near future.<br />
That brings me to the question: what has happened<br />
to the Carden Committee? As the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Rooker, indicated, it has changed its name as Mr Richard<br />
Carden is now retired. Therefore, the committee reverts to<br />
its original title, the Official Group on Organophosphates,<br />
which produces the appalling initials OGOP, which I
1137 Organophosphates<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Organophosphates<br />
1138<br />
shall mention once but not refer to again in those<br />
terms; rather, I shall refer to it as the committee. It<br />
would take me more time than is available to me in this<br />
debate to list all the contributors to the committee but<br />
representation on it is an example <strong>of</strong> joined-up<br />
government. There is not a single government department<br />
relevant to this issue that is not actively represented on<br />
the committee and forms part <strong>of</strong> its composition. The<br />
only thing that is missing from there is any direct<br />
reference to lawyers. Given that it was suggested that<br />
they might be the very contributors to delay, I should<br />
hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, will feel reassured<br />
by that omission. Not that I am saying that no lawyers<br />
are ever present with a government committee <strong>of</strong> this<br />
kind; I am merely indicating that the legal contribution<br />
is not important. What is important is the scientific<br />
support and the contribution <strong>of</strong> the government<br />
departments that all have an interest in this area; for<br />
example, the Health and Safety Executive, the Food<br />
Standards Agency, the Health Protection Agency, the<br />
Department <strong>of</strong> Health, my own department and others.<br />
I merely summarise the contributors. I would be happy<br />
to publish a list.<br />
When will the committee meet again? It will meet<br />
shortly. Noble Lords are right to say that we have not<br />
made sufficient progress in the past couple <strong>of</strong> years to<br />
justify the committee meeting. I noted the criticisms<br />
made by noble Lords that they were not aware <strong>of</strong> what<br />
the committee did at its 2007 meeting. In 2007, the<br />
committee did some very important work. It looked at<br />
an Australian review <strong>of</strong> diazinon. The Australians<br />
seemed to have made progress with regard to sheep<br />
dips. However, when we examined the progress that<br />
they had made we found that it fell short <strong>of</strong> being a<br />
conclusive position that we could adopt. It was clear<br />
that where the Australians had tackled issues with<br />
regard to sheep dips and <strong>of</strong>fered advice on the basis <strong>of</strong><br />
their experience, they had not conducted the supervision<br />
<strong>of</strong> sheep dipping in quite the way that we do in the<br />
<strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong> and we could not translate their<br />
results directly to our own experience. This conclusion<br />
was reached on the basis <strong>of</strong> very clear analysis <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Australian activity.<br />
Since then, the committee has reviewed the research<br />
projects to see whether sufficient progress is being<br />
made to bring the group together. I heard that what<br />
this country needs in this area is a bit <strong>of</strong> a zip behind it<br />
such as President Obama has produced in the <strong>United</strong><br />
States. I am at one with the House in thinking that<br />
most things good in America at present result from the<br />
election <strong>of</strong> President Obama and the work that he<br />
does. He certainly has insisted that additional work is<br />
done with regard to Gulf War veterans. That work will<br />
produce results in February 2010 because you cannot<br />
speed up such work. When that <strong>United</strong> States research<br />
and the other pieces <strong>of</strong> research I mentioned that we<br />
have commissioned, and which have received scientific<br />
validation, are completed, our committee will meet<br />
and address these issues further.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, asked about the timescale<br />
in the most trenchant terms and asked whether it<br />
constituted an exercise in procrastination. That is not<br />
the case. This is an exercise in dealing with what we all<br />
recognise is a very difficult issue on the basis <strong>of</strong><br />
making progress and <strong>of</strong> having a committee which is<br />
equipped to do this work. Its timescale is clear and fits<br />
in with crucial pieces <strong>of</strong> evidence that will be available<br />
to us in the not too distant future.<br />
I appreciate the work that the noble Countess, Lady<br />
Mar, has done in this regard. However, until she<br />
mentioned it this evening, I had not appreciated that<br />
she had suffered illness in this context. I express my<br />
concern about that and I am therefore not at all<br />
surprised at the anxiety that she expresses on behalf <strong>of</strong><br />
others who may have come into contact with the<br />
problem. I say to her and to my noble friend Lord<br />
Rooker, who, as ever, was bold and assertive in his<br />
comments and confirmed exactly how he would have<br />
acted in government, that we are obliged to work on<br />
the basis <strong>of</strong> the best scientific advice. It is certainly<br />
government practice to—<br />
Lord Livsey <strong>of</strong> Talgarth: My Lords, I am reluctant<br />
to say very much although I know quite a bit about<br />
this subject. However, can the Minister assure us that<br />
as regards the inordinate delay that has occurred—literally<br />
thousands <strong>of</strong> sheep farmers in the UK are medically<br />
proven to be affected by this issue—his department<br />
and other government departments have not been put<br />
upon by the Treasury not to accept any liability or<br />
pro<strong>of</strong> whatever that OP has the effect which many<br />
medical practitioners accept is the cause <strong>of</strong> the terrible<br />
condition from which many <strong>of</strong> these people suffer?<br />
Lord Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham: My Lords, I do not think it<br />
is anything to do with Treasury pressure; this is to do<br />
with a proper, intensely scientific investigation which<br />
has to establish cause and effect. I am merely saying to<br />
the House that at present we are not in a position to do<br />
that.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and the noble Countess,<br />
Lady Mar, referred to the HS146 issue and cabin air<br />
quality. When that issue was presented to me five years<br />
ago, I was shocked by the representations that were<br />
made. I did my very best to discover the nature <strong>of</strong><br />
what we knew about this issue, how much had been<br />
substantiated and how dangerous it was to passengers<br />
and to cabin crew and pilots. My voice would be but a<br />
bleat in the wilderness compared to that <strong>of</strong> BALPA<br />
and airline pilots across the world if an aircraft as<br />
popular as the HS146 was capable <strong>of</strong> producing a<br />
persistent and threatening illness. HS146 is not grounded<br />
on that basis; crews do not refuse to fly the aircraft. I<br />
know that there are anxieties about the issue, which<br />
needs full investigation. I am not saying that there are<br />
grounds for complacency, far from it; the last impression<br />
that I want to give from this debate is any suggestion<br />
<strong>of</strong> complacency.<br />
We have the machinery in place to examine this<br />
fully to produce answers to these very difficult questions.<br />
The Countess <strong>of</strong> Mar: My Lords, I am sorry to<br />
interrupt but the noble Lord’s time is running short.<br />
The crux <strong>of</strong> my question was about the serious health<br />
effects that some medicines cause to people who have<br />
been exposed to OPs. It can kill people. It very nearly<br />
killed me; I know from my own experience. I do not<br />
want what happened to me to happen to anyone else.<br />
Will he kindly address that?
1139 Organophosphates<br />
[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1140<br />
Lord Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham: My Lords, I understand<br />
that point entirely and I value the strength with which<br />
the noble Countess presents that position. The committee,<br />
and the Department <strong>of</strong> Health in its contributions to<br />
the committee, are in a position to address themselves<br />
to exactly those kinds <strong>of</strong> concerns. But I emphasise<br />
again that the committee is bound to be able to act<br />
effectively only when the research is sufficiently conclusive<br />
to guide how we can act.<br />
The Countess <strong>of</strong> Mar: My Lords, I am sorry to<br />
interrupt again. My own medical practitioners, when<br />
they knew what had happened, found the research.<br />
The scientific research is there—even on the internet.<br />
Lord Davies <strong>of</strong> Oldham: My Lords, as far as the<br />
committee is concerned, which together with the<br />
noble Countess’s concern is what this debate is about,<br />
the issues which it has had to address, and which have<br />
been part <strong>of</strong> its brief, are within the framework <strong>of</strong> the<br />
research it has commissioned and all the other<br />
research which it is evaluating across the world,<br />
including the American research which is due fairly<br />
shortly. I give the House the assurance that the<br />
committee will <strong>of</strong> course address these issues at<br />
that time.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, asked me some specific<br />
questions, one <strong>of</strong> which was on the question <strong>of</strong> alternatives<br />
to the use <strong>of</strong> OPs in farming. There is work on<br />
developing alternative sheep dips. That work is continuing<br />
with regard to the possibility <strong>of</strong> vaccine development<br />
and we have also been looking at the use <strong>of</strong> a hormone<br />
to disrupt the metamorphosis <strong>of</strong> the sheep scab mite.<br />
Progress on both projects is going to be reviewed by<br />
Defra in the very near future. It is not known whether<br />
any <strong>of</strong> these projects will lead to product development.<br />
The research after all has to be translated into a viable<br />
product that a company can market for the industry.<br />
Work on the biological control <strong>of</strong> the sheep scab mite<br />
has been stopped, because it was shown to have no<br />
effect when it was used on sheep. Although in the<br />
laboratory encouraging progress was made, when it<br />
was applied in the field, I am afraid the results were<br />
negative. Alternative treatments to sheep scab are available<br />
but are not effective against the same range <strong>of</strong> external<br />
parasites as OP sheep dips. That is why we continue<br />
with that position.<br />
I want to assure the House—I have inadequate time<br />
to respond to a debate <strong>of</strong> such significance and such<br />
importance and I value very much this opportunity <strong>of</strong><br />
responding—that the reason why my noble Lord, Lord<br />
Rooker, with all his persistence, was not able to come<br />
up with a straightforward answer in a short period <strong>of</strong><br />
time, after all his work with the department, is because<br />
we are genuinely facing some very difficult issues<br />
which relate to essential research. I know the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Greaves, tried to suborn me by introducing<br />
research and lobbying from Saddleworth Moor, because<br />
he knew that I would be instinctively responsive to<br />
that, because <strong>of</strong> its closeness to Oldham. I do have to<br />
say to him that the basis <strong>of</strong> the Government’s position<br />
is bound to be scientific research and advance. I want<br />
to give this hope and expectation to the House that<br />
this committee will be meeting in the not too distant<br />
future, with additional research to hand, some <strong>of</strong><br />
which may be extremely significant in terms <strong>of</strong> producing<br />
solutions to these problems, which we all recognise are<br />
very acute and very important to the people for whom<br />
we have responsibility.<br />
8.26 pm<br />
Sitting suspended.<br />
8.30 pm<br />
Political Parties and Elections Bill<br />
Report (2nd Day) (Continued)<br />
Amendment 81<br />
Moved by Lord Henley<br />
81: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Absent voting: personal identifiers verification in England<br />
and Wales<br />
(1) The Representation <strong>of</strong> the People (England and Wales)<br />
(Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/2910) are amended<br />
as follows.<br />
(2) In regulation 37 (amendment <strong>of</strong> regulation 84) leave out<br />
“not less than 20%” and insert “not less than 100%”.”<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I shall also speak to<br />
Amendment 82. We put forward similar amendments<br />
in Committee, as a way <strong>of</strong> probing; it will only be a<br />
further bit <strong>of</strong> probing this evening. As I am sure the<br />
Minister will remember, the amendments are designed<br />
to make sure that all postal votes are checked. Given<br />
the amount <strong>of</strong> fraud in the system, it seems only<br />
sensible that that should happen wherever possible.<br />
When I moved the similar amendment in Grand<br />
Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said in response:<br />
“We agree in principle that all postal votes should be checked,<br />
and will wish to require 100 per cent to be checked when it is<br />
practicable to do so. A key factor in determining when it will be<br />
appropriate to move to 100 per cent checking is when there is<br />
deemed to be sufficient capacity within postal voting s<strong>of</strong>tware<br />
systems to support 100 per cent checking”.—[Official Report,<br />
13/5/09; col. GC 435.]<br />
He went on to talk about the then forthcoming elections<br />
for the European <strong>Parliament</strong> on 4 June. As his noble<br />
friend Lord Campbell-Savours mentioned earlier, we<br />
have had the European elections between Committee<br />
and Report. Therefore, while I appreciate that on<br />
17 June it is relatively few days since those elections, it<br />
might be useful if the Minister were able to say a little<br />
about what the Government learnt from them. I do<br />
not mean from a political point <strong>of</strong> view, as I imagine<br />
that they have been feeling fairly sore about them ever<br />
since, with a mere 15 per cent <strong>of</strong> the vote. That is the<br />
lowest percentage <strong>of</strong> the vote that the Labour Party<br />
has had in modern history, if we take modern history<br />
back to 1919; I see my noble friend Lord Bates nodding.<br />
Even in those couple <strong>of</strong> weeks, the Government<br />
might have learnt something about the need for checking,<br />
so I wonder whether the Minister can say what level <strong>of</strong><br />
checking there was in the different regions. He said<br />
that we required at least 20 per cent at the moment; I<br />
imagine therefore that 20 per cent were checked, and I<br />
look forward to confirmation <strong>of</strong> that. Can he say
1141 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1142<br />
whether, in any <strong>of</strong> those areas, any <strong>of</strong> the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers felt it necessary to go beyond that 20 per cent<br />
because they began to think that there might be some<br />
fraud? That should be known at this relatively early<br />
stage. The same would be true <strong>of</strong> the local elections,<br />
which took place on the same day but were counted a<br />
couple <strong>of</strong> days earlier. Postal voting fraud seems more<br />
likely to happen in local elections; obviously, a smaller<br />
number <strong>of</strong> votes can make a big difference. In European<br />
elections it would be quite difficult, particularly with<br />
the d’Hondt system <strong>of</strong> counting the votes, for it to<br />
make much <strong>of</strong> a difference in the long run.<br />
As I understand it, county council votes would have<br />
been counted on a ward-by-ward basis, which might<br />
have indicated to individual returning <strong>of</strong>ficers that it<br />
might have been better to have checked more than<br />
20 per cent in certain wards. I think that the European<br />
votes were counted on a local government basis—roughly<br />
in constituencies, sometimes a bit bigger, sometimes a<br />
bit smaller. Again, I would be interested to know<br />
whether there were any areas where the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers felt it necessary to make such checks.<br />
I hope that that is sufficient and that the Minister<br />
can give us some idea <strong>of</strong> what happened, and whether<br />
that indicates that there is a need to pursue these<br />
amendments at a later stage. I beg to move.<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Ministry<br />
<strong>of</strong> Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the introduction <strong>of</strong><br />
personal identifiers for postal voters under the Electoral<br />
Administration Act 2006 has been a key measure in<br />
strengthening the integrity <strong>of</strong> postal voting. Under<br />
amendments made to the Representation <strong>of</strong> the People<br />
(England and Wales) Regulations 2001 following the<br />
introduction <strong>of</strong> the 2006 Act, we specified that at<br />
elections returning <strong>of</strong>ficers were required to check at<br />
least 20 per cent <strong>of</strong> returned postal votes. That is the<br />
minimum requirement, but they have a discretion to<br />
check 100 per cent if they wish to do so. If the<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer considers that there is a real risk <strong>of</strong><br />
fraud, he may specify from the outset that all postal<br />
voting statements will be checked. The current statutory<br />
provisions also provide the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer with the<br />
flexibility to begin with 20 per cent checking but to<br />
increase that level at later postal vote-opening sessions<br />
if any evidence <strong>of</strong> fraud emerges.<br />
I repeat what I said in Grand Committee: we agree<br />
in principle with the desire for 100 per cent <strong>of</strong> postal<br />
votes to be checked and we will make that a statutory<br />
requirement once it is safe and appropriate to do so.<br />
The regulations for the recent European parliamentary<br />
elections followed the provisions for parliamentary<br />
and local elections, and therefore required that at least<br />
20 per cent <strong>of</strong> returned postal votes were checked.<br />
However, at the request <strong>of</strong> the regional returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers, we made funding available to local returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers to cover the costs for administrators in checking<br />
all returned postal votes.<br />
While we have been supportive <strong>of</strong> the 100 per cent<br />
checking <strong>of</strong> all returned postal votes, we continue to<br />
believe that it would be premature to mandate 100 per<br />
cent checking in law at this stage given, as I said in<br />
Grand Committee, that we cannot be certain that the<br />
necessary s<strong>of</strong>tware systems are in place to deliver<br />
100 per cent checking across all regions in Great Britain.<br />
In order to establish when it will be appropriate to<br />
move to mandatory checking <strong>of</strong> postal votes, it is<br />
imperative that we work with the Electoral Commission,<br />
electoral administrators and s<strong>of</strong>tware suppliers to carefully<br />
review how the 100 per cent checking <strong>of</strong> postal votes<br />
worked in practice at the European parliamentary<br />
elections. For that reason, we do not consider it appropriate<br />
today to accept the amendment. It is possible to make<br />
the change to mandatory 100 per cent checking <strong>of</strong><br />
postal votes through amendments to the existing<br />
secondary legislation. I want to reassure the noble<br />
Lord and other noble Lords that there will be no need<br />
to rely on there being a suitable Bill before <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
for this change to be made. I hope that on that basis<br />
the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful that the<br />
noble Lord has confirmed that this matter can be dealt<br />
with by secondary legislation in due course, when the<br />
appropriate s<strong>of</strong>tware systems are in place. However, he<br />
did not deal with my principal question, which was<br />
whether the Government have learnt any lessons, other<br />
than the obvious political lessons, from those elections.<br />
Were there any areas where a returning <strong>of</strong>ficer at a<br />
local or a wider level felt it necessary to make a 100 per<br />
cent check? The noble Lord must know the answer,<br />
because it obviously happened either on 5 June, when<br />
the local election votes were counted, or on Sunday<br />
7 June, when the national votes were counted. The<br />
noble Lord’s colleague has returned with some advice;<br />
perhaps the Minister can intervene with an answer.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, I shall respond quickly. The<br />
elections happened only a few days ago and we await<br />
the Electoral Commission’s <strong>report</strong> on how the system<br />
worked for the European elections. The noble Lord<br />
must give us a little longer to come up with the<br />
answers. The votes were counted on the Sunday night;<br />
I remember it well. That was 10 days ago, which is not<br />
very long in the Electoral Commission’s life.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I appreciate that it is<br />
possibly too early. I, too, remember watching the<br />
results on Sunday night; the noble Lord will probably<br />
remember them for longer than I will. For the moment,<br />
I must accept what he has said and take that as an<br />
answer. I shall not come back to these amendments,<br />
but I certainly hope that the noble Lord will make sure<br />
that, when the Electoral Commission <strong>report</strong>s, he notifies<br />
me and other noble Lords who have taken an interest<br />
in this <strong>of</strong> its findings. I beg leave to withdraw the<br />
amendment.<br />
Amendment 81 withdrawn.<br />
Amendment 82 not moved.<br />
Amendment 83<br />
Moved by Lord Bates<br />
83: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Service Registration<br />
(1) Section 15 <strong>of</strong> the Representation <strong>of</strong> the People Act 1983<br />
(c. 2) (service declaration) is amended as follows.<br />
(2) Omit subsection (2)(a).<br />
(3) Omit subsections (9) to (12).”
1143 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1144<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, the amendment stands in<br />
my name and that <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord Henley. It<br />
deals with service registration and would add a new<br />
clause to strengthen provision for members <strong>of</strong> the<br />
armed services to be on the electoral register. It might<br />
be helpful for the House and for Members who were<br />
not present when this matter was discussed in<br />
Grand Committee if I <strong>of</strong>fered a few sentences <strong>of</strong><br />
background before coming to the point that we are<br />
concerned about.<br />
Before 2001, service personnel were registered on<br />
the electoral register through the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence.<br />
This was changed to relieve the administrative burden<br />
on the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence and apply a greater focus<br />
to local authorities, which were then enabled to remove<br />
from the register those who were no longer resident.<br />
This period was marked by poor administration, but<br />
all service personnel were registered during that time.<br />
The 2001 changes resulted in a number <strong>of</strong> service<br />
personnel not being included in the electoral register<br />
and, given the rolling register’s four-week qualification<br />
period and a three-week election campaign, many<br />
service personnel were disfranchised in the 2005 general<br />
election. The number <strong>of</strong> service voters in Great Britain<br />
on 16 February 2001 was 175,475; the figure for 4<br />
December 2006 was 21,000—a reduction <strong>of</strong> 150,000.<br />
That is clearly a cause for concern, particularly given<br />
that our Armed Forces are involved in at least two<br />
military engagements. They are putting their lives at<br />
risk for this country and we certainly feel that they<br />
ought to have a say about the policy and the Government<br />
who are responsible for dispatching them into those<br />
engagements.<br />
Under the terms <strong>of</strong> the Representation <strong>of</strong> the People<br />
Act 2000, the time limit on the validity <strong>of</strong> the service<br />
declaration for service registration was changed by the<br />
Secretary <strong>of</strong> State from every year to every three years,<br />
designed to coincide with the three-year postings which<br />
have diminished currency in the current period. Service<br />
personnel—and their husbands, wives or civil partners—<br />
are currently able to register as an ordinary voter or a<br />
service voter. Those based overseas can also register as<br />
overseas voters.<br />
Service voters are registered at a fixed address in the<br />
<strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>, even if they move around. Therefore,<br />
if used for those who are moving more frequently, or<br />
for those who are likely to be deployed overseas frequently<br />
or at short notice, this has a significant impact. That is<br />
not to suggest that the Electoral Commission or, indeed,<br />
the Government have not been alert to the problems<br />
or not taken steps. The Electoral Commission launched<br />
an initiative last October specifically aimed at trying<br />
to get Armed Forces members to register. There was<br />
an attempt to have all 4,000 units hold an electoral<br />
registration day in November where attention would<br />
be drawn to the issue.<br />
8.45 pm<br />
I come to the principal evidence causing our concern.<br />
A survey carried out by Defence Analytical Services<br />
and Advice, published in July 2008, surveyed 8,719<br />
service personnel across the three services. It found<br />
that only 69 per cent <strong>of</strong> personnel were registered to<br />
vote. Only 62 per cent <strong>of</strong> Army respondents <strong>report</strong>ed<br />
that they were registered. Some 84 per cent <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
were registers but only 66 per cent <strong>of</strong> the other ranks.<br />
Only 43 per cent <strong>of</strong> overseas personnel were registered<br />
to vote, and 31 per cent <strong>of</strong> personnel who were not<br />
registered to vote said that they did not receive an<br />
electoral registration form. Of the units, 70 per cent<br />
had still not held a service electoral registration day<br />
informing personnel about how to register to vote.<br />
That evidence, coupled with the massive fall-<strong>of</strong>f in<br />
Armed Forces members registering to vote, was the<br />
cause <strong>of</strong> our concern.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will<br />
not mind giving way. We were very impressed by what<br />
he had to say about this in Grand Committee, and he<br />
is making the same points tonight. As he says, the<br />
Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence is making real efforts to ensure<br />
that more service personnel are registered. I should<br />
point out that the figures, which have come down so<br />
much, do not take account <strong>of</strong> the number <strong>of</strong> people in<br />
the services who have put their own names on the<br />
register at their home addresses, as they are entitled to<br />
do. The noble Lord is right to say that there has been a<br />
decline, but not by that amount.<br />
I will listen very carefully to what the noble Lord<br />
said both last time and tonight. He knows that the<br />
existing regime allows the period to be varied by up to<br />
five years by order, instead <strong>of</strong> the three years at which<br />
it stands at the moment. In respect <strong>of</strong> members <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Armed Forces and their spouses or civil partners, if<br />
the view is reached on consideration <strong>of</strong> the evidence<br />
that a longer or shorter period would be beneficial, we<br />
think that it would be important to retain that flexibility.<br />
We think that to allow it for ever, as the amendment<br />
provides, would automatically make the register inaccurate.<br />
Therefore, in response to his comments and his concerns<br />
about lower registration rates, we intend to extend the<br />
service declaration period from three years to five<br />
years. An increase to five years <strong>of</strong>fers the additional<br />
benefit <strong>of</strong> being the same period as the one in which<br />
postal voters must provide new identifiers. Indeed, the<br />
service voters’registration form, as issued by the Electoral<br />
Commission, includes a postal vote application.<br />
I am sorry to interrupt him. I do so in order to tell<br />
him that we are prepared to make that concession<br />
because <strong>of</strong> his advocacy this evening. I hope that may<br />
assist him in continuing with his arguments.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, I am happy to take such<br />
interventions at any time. It is a very welcome intervention<br />
and I thank the Minister. He is always extremely<br />
courteous and thoughtful and he pays attention to the<br />
debates. It is very encouraging that he is making that<br />
proposal.<br />
The proposal to have no time limit is essentially an<br />
attempt to return to the state that existed before 2001.<br />
I recognise that changes have come into place and I<br />
recognise the importance <strong>of</strong> having an up-to-date and<br />
accurate electoral register. The Minister’s <strong>of</strong>fer <strong>of</strong> an<br />
increase from three years to five will therefore be<br />
widely welcomed not only by service personnel but by<br />
their families. It is one way <strong>of</strong> ensuring that their<br />
voices are heard in future elections. I am very grateful<br />
for that reassurance.
1145 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1146<br />
Perhaps I may push my luck just a fraction further<br />
by mentioning that 70 per cent <strong>of</strong> units have still not<br />
held a service electoral registration day informing<br />
personnel how to register to vote. I am sure that service<br />
personnel will appreciate that they have to go through<br />
this exercise only once every five years as a result <strong>of</strong><br />
the Minister’s welcome concession. However, perhaps<br />
I may press him a little further and ask whether he can<br />
encourage his colleagues in the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence to<br />
make representations—indeed, it would seem appropriate<br />
for the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence to issue an order—regarding<br />
an electoral registration day so that people know<br />
about the changes that have been made and know also<br />
that their engagement in the democratic process is <strong>of</strong><br />
the highest concern to Members on all sides <strong>of</strong> this<br />
House. I am happy to give way at this point or, if other<br />
people want to contribute to the debate, perhaps I<br />
should sit down and allow that to happen.<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, the Minister will recall that<br />
in Grand Committee we, too, were concerned about<br />
this issue, and we very much welcome the concession<br />
that he has made this evening. I cannot remember<br />
whether it was him or his colleague but in Grand<br />
Committee the Minister who spoke was pretty adamant<br />
that he wanted to stick with the three-year period.<br />
Therefore, I am glad that on this issue at least the<br />
opposition parties seem to have moved the Minister a<br />
little.<br />
I want to make a couple <strong>of</strong> additional points. First,<br />
I understand that since 2005, which is after all four<br />
years ago, the Electoral Commission has been working<br />
with the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence on this issue because it,<br />
too, has been very concerned about the under-registration<br />
<strong>of</strong> members <strong>of</strong> the Armed Forces. Can the Minister<br />
say how that initiative is progressing, and can he give<br />
us an undertaking that, if further recommendations<br />
come forward as a result <strong>of</strong> that exercise, there will be<br />
a method by which he can, if necessary, move further<br />
without the need for legislation?<br />
Secondly, if the discrepancy is anything like the one<br />
to which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, referred, then is<br />
the Minister serious? After all, in recent years we have<br />
been asking young men and women to fight on behalf<br />
<strong>of</strong> the nation in the most appallingly difficult<br />
circumstances. Following deployment, the very least<br />
that they should expect is every possible assistance to<br />
enable them to use their civic right to vote. I cannot<br />
think <strong>of</strong> any situation more frustrating than for a<br />
young service man or woman coming back from Iraq<br />
or Afghanistan not being able to vote on the big issues<br />
affecting the nation today. I am sure that the Minister<br />
accepts and supports that view. Therefore, if the Electoral<br />
Commission and the MoD feel that further improvements<br />
can be made, I hope that there will be ways in which<br />
that can be achieved outwith this legislation.<br />
Lord Craig <strong>of</strong> Radley: My Lords, I am obviously<br />
very interested in this subject. I should like to be quite<br />
clear that it is the responsibility <strong>of</strong> the Ministry <strong>of</strong><br />
Defence to bring to the attention <strong>of</strong> all service personnel<br />
the current situation, whatever it may be, in relation to<br />
voting. At the moment, it seems that one talks about<br />
the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence doing this or that, but I<br />
should like it to be clearly laid out that it is an MoD<br />
responsibility.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, I am very grateful to noble<br />
Lords. I should have praised, or at least mentioned,<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and his colleagues, who<br />
also pushed for a change in our line on this. We were<br />
always persuaded that there was a problem, even<br />
though the numbers have gone up recently, and we<br />
always knew that more had to be done. However, as I<br />
said, their joint advocacy moved us to believe that we<br />
could alter the rules by statutory instrument as soon<br />
as practicable in order to change the time limit from<br />
three to five years.<br />
As I understand it, getting members <strong>of</strong> the Armed<br />
Forces on to the register is a joint obligation on the<br />
Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence and my department, the Ministry<br />
<strong>of</strong> Justice, which has responsibility for elections in<br />
general terms. That is the answer to the noble and<br />
gallant Lord.<br />
The question <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, links<br />
with the question <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord Bates,<br />
asking what more we can do. On the information<br />
gained from the survey last year, we have redoubled<br />
efforts through the annual information campaign to<br />
encourage members <strong>of</strong> the Armed Forces and their<br />
families to register to vote and to update their registration<br />
details when they move. The campaign will continue<br />
to highlight the options for service personnel and their<br />
families to register as an ordinary elector or as a<br />
service voter; a choice that they can exercise depending<br />
on their circumstance.<br />
Officials at my department will support that work<br />
and place particular focus on establishing how the<br />
MoD’s joint personnel administration system can help<br />
to promote service registration. As noble Lords will be<br />
aware, the Electoral Administration Act 2006 placed a<br />
duty on the MoD to maintain a record <strong>of</strong> a service<br />
person’s electoral registration record on a voluntary<br />
basis. The use <strong>of</strong> the system is still in its infancy, but<br />
responses from service personnel themselves in the<br />
2008 survey suggest that they could be better employed<br />
to aid registration. It is clear that more work needs to<br />
be done to identify new ways <strong>of</strong> encouraging service<br />
personnel to register. My <strong>of</strong>ficials will meet with MoD<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficials to discuss the matters in more detail, and I am<br />
happy to write to noble Lords on the outcome <strong>of</strong> that<br />
meeting so that they will be kept informed about how<br />
progress is continuing. I hope that in the light <strong>of</strong> the<br />
<strong>of</strong>fer that I have made to the noble Lord, Lord Bates,<br />
he will consider withdrawing his amendment.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s<br />
comments, as I am for the intervention <strong>of</strong> the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Tyler, in these matters, and the intervention<br />
<strong>of</strong> the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig <strong>of</strong> Radley,<br />
who sought clarification <strong>of</strong> exactly where responsibility<br />
resides. The Minister’s response was clearly that<br />
responsibility is shared between the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Justice<br />
and the Ministry <strong>of</strong> Defence, in which case responsibility<br />
clearly needs to lead to action. It is not acceptable that<br />
there is such a large fall-<strong>of</strong>f involved. More needs to<br />
happen to realise the aspiration put forward by the<br />
Electoral Commission about electoral registration<br />
awareness days.<br />
There is a special electoral registration form for<br />
armed services personnel which is readily available on<br />
the internet. However, there is no substitute for having
1147 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1148<br />
those in hard-copy form. When armed services personnel<br />
are deployed overseas, that should be part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
checks made under the standard operating procedures.<br />
That would seem a sensible way forward. The Minister<br />
has undertaken to make representations to the Ministry<br />
<strong>of</strong> Defence. We are encouraged by that and I am<br />
grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.<br />
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.<br />
Lord Greaves moved Amendment No. 84:<br />
84: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Rejected postal votes<br />
(1) Schedule 1 to the 1983 Act (parliamentary elections rules)<br />
is amended as follows.<br />
(2) After rule 31A (return <strong>of</strong> postal ballot papers) there is<br />
inserted—<br />
“Postal ballot papers not counted<br />
(1) Where a postal vote has been returned but not counted<br />
because the personal identifiers—<br />
(a) are absent,<br />
(b) are incomplete, or<br />
(c) do not match the personal identifiers provided with the<br />
application for a postal vote,<br />
the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer must record this information on a separate<br />
list (the list <strong>of</strong> postal votes returned but not counted) in addition<br />
to making the entry on the marked list.<br />
(2) The list <strong>of</strong> postal votes returned but not counted is a<br />
relevant election document for the purposes <strong>of</strong> section 42 <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Electoral Administration Act 2006.<br />
(3) The returning <strong>of</strong>ficer shall write to each elector whose<br />
returned postal vote has not been counted for a reason listed in<br />
paragraph (1) to inform them <strong>of</strong> the circumstances in which their<br />
vote has not been counted.”.”<br />
The noble Lord said: My Lords, as I am going to<br />
refer to some <strong>of</strong> the local information on Pendle about<br />
which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, was asking, I<br />
should declare an interest in that I was the Liberal<br />
Democrat agent for most <strong>of</strong> the county council candidates<br />
in the recent elections and attended counts on both<br />
Friday morning and Sunday evening. The matter raised<br />
by the amendment was one I referred to briefly in<br />
Committee on a different amendment, but I have now<br />
brought it back following the experience in the recent<br />
elections as there is a serious problem that needs to be<br />
tackled. I am moving the amendment in the hope that<br />
it is helpful.<br />
The amendment requires the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer to do<br />
two things. First, the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer must keep a<br />
separate list <strong>of</strong> those postal votes that have been<br />
returned, or where envelopes have been returned but<br />
where the votes have not been counted owing to a<br />
failure <strong>of</strong> the personal identifier system. In other<br />
words, the personal identifiers are absent, incomplete,<br />
or do not match the information that the council holds<br />
on file as a result <strong>of</strong> the application for a postal vote. I<br />
should say that I am particularly grateful to Gillian<br />
Hartley, who is the Pendle Council elections <strong>of</strong>ficer,<br />
for helping me to understand how the system works<br />
and what happens, and for providing me with the<br />
information that I shall <strong>of</strong>fer a little later.<br />
Secondly, the amendment requires the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer to write individually to each <strong>of</strong> the electors<br />
whose votes have not been counted because <strong>of</strong> a<br />
mismatch in or absence <strong>of</strong> the personal identifiers. At<br />
the moment, that does not happen. At the moment,<br />
two lists are produced after the election, which are<br />
available to candidates and political parties under the<br />
approved conditions.<br />
The first is the marked register, which shows the<br />
people who have turned up at polling stations and<br />
been given a ballot paper—and, presumably voted.<br />
The second is the postal voters list, which provides a<br />
list <strong>of</strong> those postal votes which have been returned at<br />
that election. The postal voters list includes all the<br />
envelopes that have been returned, because the list is<br />
compiled from information on the envelopes before<br />
they are opened and before the votes are opened, so it<br />
includes those which are not subsequently counted.<br />
The provision <strong>of</strong> that list, which did not happen before<br />
the passing <strong>of</strong> the Electoral Administration Act 2006,<br />
was partly a result <strong>of</strong> discussion that took place in<br />
your Lordships’ House on previous legislation, when<br />
it became clear that that list was required. Before then,<br />
the only list required was <strong>of</strong> the postal votes issued,<br />
not those returned.<br />
The current system is that if you send a postal vote<br />
back, the envelope is returned, received and opened.<br />
Inside that envelope, there should be a smaller envelope,<br />
sealed up, that includes the ballot paper and the piece<br />
<strong>of</strong> paper that contains the personal identifier. When<br />
those personal identifiers are checked—I have to say<br />
that Pendle, like most <strong>of</strong> the councils in the north-west,<br />
did a 100 per cent check <strong>of</strong> postal votes and the<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer decided to do it last year in view <strong>of</strong><br />
the controversy over previous postal votes in Pendle—the<br />
sheet <strong>of</strong> personal identifiers comes in, it is fed into the<br />
machine that checks them and that computer-type<br />
machine checks whether the information about date <strong>of</strong><br />
birth and signature match the information that the<br />
council holds on its records. If the machine thinks that<br />
they match, it goes through. If the machine thinks that<br />
they do not match, or it is not sure, it is spewed out<br />
and on the screen, on the monitor, is displayed the<br />
information that the council holds on its records. That<br />
is then compared visually and manually by counting<br />
staff with the paper that has come in, and they decide<br />
whether, yes, they match sufficiently or no, they do<br />
not. That is how it actually works.<br />
We discussed this in Grand Committee, I brought<br />
evidence from two county councils by-elections this<br />
spring in Nelson, which is part <strong>of</strong> Pendle, in one <strong>of</strong><br />
which the number <strong>of</strong> rejected votes, because <strong>of</strong> a<br />
mismatch or absence <strong>of</strong> identifiers, was more than<br />
5 per cent <strong>of</strong> the total, and in the other, which was a<br />
substantially Asian ward, more than 10 per cent. This<br />
year, in the six county divisions within Pendle, which<br />
make up Pendle and the area that counted for the<br />
European elections, 485 returned envelopes were<br />
rejected—in other words, the ballot paper was not<br />
looked at and not counted—for failure to provide a<br />
matching identifier. In some cases, the identifiers were<br />
absent; in some cases, only one <strong>of</strong> them was there; in<br />
most cases, they did not match. This was approximately<br />
4.5 per cent <strong>of</strong> the total, on a return <strong>of</strong> postal votes <strong>of</strong><br />
about 70 per cent.<br />
In the most Asian division—I do not have the exact<br />
figure, but I think the Asian electorate is about 45 per<br />
cent <strong>of</strong> the total—the return <strong>of</strong> postal votes was<br />
81.7 per cent, and 11.6 per cent <strong>of</strong> the envelopes
1149 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1150<br />
returned were rejected. So across the area, about one<br />
in 20 was rejected, and in this particular division, it<br />
was more than one in 10.<br />
I am interested in the Electoral Commission’s comment<br />
on this amendment, and I will read it:<br />
“The Commission has since July 2007 recommended that the<br />
Government should enable Returning Officers and Electoral<br />
Registration Officers to access and use data that identifies electors<br />
whose postal votes were rejected due to a mismatch <strong>of</strong> identifiers.<br />
This information should be used by the Electoral Registration<br />
Officer to write to all electors whose postal votes were rejected<br />
due to a mismatch <strong>of</strong> identifiers, inviting them to provide fresh<br />
identifiers. The Returning Officer should also write to any elector<br />
where they believe that their postal ballot was used in error by<br />
someone other than the elector, advising <strong>of</strong> the correct process<br />
and the possible penalties for malpractice”.<br />
Whether these figures show that people are simply<br />
making a mess <strong>of</strong> the system, or whether they show<br />
that, in some cases at least, there are attempts at<br />
voting fraud which have not succeeded because the<br />
postal vote identifier system is working, there is a<br />
problem. If one in 20 or one in 10, or something <strong>of</strong><br />
that order—450 votes across the borough—are being<br />
sent in by people expecting them to be counted, and<br />
they are not being counted because the personal identifiers<br />
are absent or not matching, there is something wrong.<br />
It seems to me that this is information to which<br />
candidates and political parties should have access<br />
after the election, because it is fairly obvious that, in<br />
some cases, there may be prima facie evidence <strong>of</strong><br />
fraud. One <strong>of</strong> the reasons why candidates and political<br />
parties are allowed access to the marked register and<br />
the list <strong>of</strong> postal votes returned is precisely so that they<br />
can be investigated, and if people want to challenge an<br />
election or ask the police or the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer to get<br />
involved, they can do so. This seems to be a piece <strong>of</strong><br />
information that also ought to be available, but at the<br />
very least, the electors concerned should be written to,<br />
because otherwise there may well be a lot <strong>of</strong> people<br />
who are sending back their votes in good faith, who<br />
are making the same mistake time after time. It may be<br />
that they have two signatures, and they are just using<br />
the wrong one—they are using their personal signature<br />
and not their cheque-book signature or whichever way<br />
around it is—and votes are being lost. There is, therefore,<br />
a problem here arising from the system <strong>of</strong> personal<br />
identifiers that was very properly introduced in order<br />
to make postal voting a bit more secure. There is a<br />
problem and it needs to be addressed.<br />
My final point is that I am told by Mrs. Hartley<br />
that the information on the proportions and numbers<br />
<strong>of</strong> these votes which have been rejected for these<br />
reasons are part <strong>of</strong> the information that is being sent<br />
<strong>of</strong>f, she says, to Plymouth. I assume it is the elections<br />
centre at the University <strong>of</strong> Plymouth that is collecting<br />
information, as she says, on behalf <strong>of</strong> the Government.<br />
So there ought to be a lot <strong>of</strong> this information gathered<br />
in fairly soon from around the country. It is a serious<br />
problem and one that needs to be addressed. This<br />
amendment is an attempt to do that. I beg to move.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I shall comment briefly on<br />
the amendment in the name <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Greaves. We obviously have some sympathy with the<br />
amendment in that it is designed to help deal with<br />
postal voting fraud, which I stress was an important<br />
issue in an earlier amendment. We have just three<br />
caveats that I shall point out before the Minister<br />
responds.<br />
First, I worry that the amendment could place an<br />
excessive burden on the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer, and I am<br />
interested to know whether the noble Lord has carried<br />
out any assessment <strong>of</strong> the resource implications <strong>of</strong> the<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer writing what might be a rather large<br />
number <strong>of</strong> letters, particularly in an area such as<br />
Pendle in which, as the noble Lord told us, some<br />
400 or 500 postal votes were held not to be valid.<br />
Secondly, if the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer had to write to<br />
each elector setting out why their vote has not been<br />
counted, as set out in proposed new sub-paragraph (3)<br />
in proposed new subsection (2) in the amendment, and<br />
if there was the possibility <strong>of</strong> a criminal prosecution<br />
<strong>of</strong> this matter later, I worry that anything that the<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficer might say might prejudice the chances<br />
<strong>of</strong> a fair trial. I would need legal advice as to whether<br />
that is the case, but no doubt the Minister will respond<br />
to that point in due course.<br />
My third point relates to privacy. Proposed new<br />
sub-paragraph (2) in proposed new subsection (2) in<br />
the amendment tells us that,<br />
“The list <strong>of</strong> postal votes returned but not counted”,<br />
would be kept and would count as “a relevant election<br />
document”. As a relevant election document under<br />
Section 42 <strong>of</strong> the Electoral Administration Act 2006,<br />
it would be available for inspection by the public. The<br />
noble Lord set out his reasons for that, but presumably—<br />
again, I welcome comments on this—it could have a<br />
detrimental impact on privacy <strong>of</strong> the ballot. People<br />
should not be able to see a list <strong>of</strong> those who have spoilt<br />
their ballot paper, intentionally or otherwise, so there<br />
are dangers in going down this route. Although I have<br />
expressed a degree <strong>of</strong> sympathy for the noble Lord’s<br />
amendment, I think that there are one or two problems<br />
with it.<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, the amendment would<br />
require a returning <strong>of</strong>ficer to keep information on<br />
postal votes that have been rejected because the postal-vote<br />
identifiers have not been completed, are incomplete,<br />
or do not match the records held on the postal-vote<br />
application form. The second part <strong>of</strong> the amendment<br />
would require a returning <strong>of</strong>ficer to write to all electors<br />
whose postal vote was rejected notifying them <strong>of</strong> the<br />
circumstances in which it was rejected.<br />
I think Members on all sides <strong>of</strong> the House are<br />
concerned to secure every possible improvement<br />
that we can to the postal voting system, and the<br />
amendment clearly has very good intentions, seeking<br />
as it does to ensure that votes cast may be counted and<br />
that the integrity <strong>of</strong> the system is strengthened. These<br />
are aims that the Government <strong>of</strong> course support, but<br />
while we may agree on the general intention, I have<br />
some concern about the policy prescription set out by<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I am not convinced that<br />
compelling a returning <strong>of</strong>ficer to write to all electors<br />
who have had their postal vote ballot rejected due to a<br />
mismatch <strong>of</strong> identifiers is the correct course <strong>of</strong> action.<br />
In some cases, this may well have the effect simply <strong>of</strong><br />
alerting would-be fraudsters to the failure <strong>of</strong> their<br />
attempt.
1151 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1152<br />
My inclination would be to grant the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer discretion so that, when there has clearly been a<br />
simple error such as entering the wrong date on the<br />
postal vote application or statement, the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer might write; but where the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer<br />
suspects fraud, he or she might consider that notifying<br />
the police to investigate is the correct course <strong>of</strong> action.<br />
This judgment should be made in conjunction with<br />
administrators and the Association <strong>of</strong> Chief Police<br />
Officers, rather than leaping to a decision that may<br />
hinder rather than help attempts to tackle fraud. At<br />
this late stage in the passage <strong>of</strong> the Bill, I do not<br />
consider there to be the time available for us to work<br />
through the issues so that we can be confident about<br />
making a change <strong>of</strong> this nature.<br />
9.15 pm<br />
Another matter for further consideration is the<br />
question <strong>of</strong> those electors who do not respond to the<br />
letter issued by the returning <strong>of</strong>ficer. It may well be<br />
desirable for additional follow-up action to take place<br />
in this instance in order that the ERO might establish<br />
beyond doubt the identity <strong>of</strong> the individuals residing<br />
at that address with a view to ensuring the<br />
comprehensiveness and accuracy <strong>of</strong> the electoral register.<br />
However, this is properly a role for the electoral registration<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer. Clarifying the powers for returning <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
and electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers to share data for<br />
these purposes is another area which would need<br />
careful consideration. Rightly, there are clear provisions<br />
in law concerned with the safe disposal and secrecy <strong>of</strong><br />
election documents. It would be all too easy to implement<br />
a change in the legislation which sought to provide<br />
access to election records for one purpose, but which<br />
inadvertently compromised the safety and secrecy <strong>of</strong><br />
the information that those records contained.<br />
On the provisions for dealing with election documents,<br />
I should also make it clear that the amendment put<br />
forward by the noble Lord is defective. It provides that<br />
the proposed list should be regarded as a relevant<br />
election document for the purpose <strong>of</strong> Section 42 <strong>of</strong><br />
the Electoral Administration Act 2006. However, this<br />
section provides for access to election documents in<br />
relation to elections other than parliamentary elections.<br />
Corresponding provision in respect <strong>of</strong> parliamentary<br />
elections is made in rules 55 to 57 <strong>of</strong> the parliamentary<br />
elections rules.<br />
I am sorry that I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Henley, any answers, but his questions make the point<br />
that the Government would make. It is not<br />
straightforward. We would need to understand the<br />
size <strong>of</strong> the burden, the implications for a successful<br />
criminal prosecution and the implications for the whole<br />
area <strong>of</strong> privacy.<br />
To summarise, we agree that there is merit in the<br />
intention behind the noble Lord’s amendment, but we<br />
are concerned that the right measures are put in place<br />
and we would wish to consult more widely before<br />
bringing forward proposals. I note from its briefing<br />
that the Electoral Commission supports the intention<br />
<strong>of</strong> the noble Lord. However, I understand that it<br />
shares our concerns about moving to legislation without<br />
due consideration <strong>of</strong> the issues at hand. The Government<br />
will therefore undertake to consider this issue with the<br />
commission, ACPO and other appropriate stakeholders<br />
with a view to legislating in the next electoral Bill. On<br />
this basis, I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw his<br />
amendment.<br />
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am very grateful for that<br />
reply. I agree with a great deal <strong>of</strong> what the Minister<br />
has said, particularly about the potential tension between,<br />
on the one hand, when a returning <strong>of</strong>ficer or an<br />
electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficer writes to people to say,<br />
“Sorry you have made a mistake. You ought to know<br />
this because you are losing your vote”—accidentally,<br />
presumably—and, on other hand, when they think<br />
that it might be evidence <strong>of</strong> fraud. I thought about<br />
that issue before writing this amendment, but I came<br />
to the view that it would be best to put down a simple<br />
amendment in order to raise the issue and in the hope<br />
<strong>of</strong> getting the response that the Minister has given. I<br />
am very grateful for that and for his promise. I was<br />
getting quite excited until he used the word “stakeholder”,<br />
then I lost interest.<br />
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, I do not<br />
think that there will be a huge administrative burden.<br />
There will be a little extra administrative burden because<br />
when someone applies for a postal vote—at general<br />
elections a lot come in at the last minute—the returning<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers write to people to check that they want it and<br />
that it is okay. Election <strong>of</strong>fices are full <strong>of</strong> computers<br />
which are for ever churning out letters and envelopes.<br />
They do that all the time—perhaps they do it too<br />
much. Nevertheless, it is not a huge question. On the<br />
privacy and secrecy <strong>of</strong> documents, it is important that<br />
lists <strong>of</strong> everyone who has voted and everyone who has<br />
returned a postal vote envelope are produced, just like<br />
those that are produced at the moment.<br />
The noble Lord referred to spoiled ballots. We are<br />
not talking about spoiled ballot papers, but those that<br />
have not even been looked at. I agree that a spoiled<br />
ballot paper should never be divulged because that is<br />
the way someone has voted, but here we are talking<br />
about ballot papers that have not been looked at or<br />
counted, so no one knows if they have been spoiled<br />
because they are still in their envelopes, having never<br />
been opened.<br />
The Government said that they would work through<br />
these issues. Instead <strong>of</strong> waiting for the next election<br />
before introducing legislation, I wonder whether it<br />
might be possible to deal with this through secondary<br />
legislation by introducing statutory instruments to<br />
amend the election rules. I would ask the Government<br />
to look at that once they have carried out the consultation.<br />
However, I am very encouraged by what the Government<br />
have said and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.<br />
Amendment 84 withdrawn.<br />
Amendment 84A<br />
Moved by Lord Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch<br />
84A: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Ballot papers<br />
(1) Except in the case <strong>of</strong> postal votes, ballot papers must be<br />
given to voters unfolded.<br />
(2) The Commission shall monitor, and take such steps as they<br />
consider appropriate to securing, compliance with subsection (1).<br />
(3) Within three months <strong>of</strong> an election, the Commission shall<br />
publish a <strong>report</strong> pursuant to subsection (2).
1153 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1154<br />
(4) If the Commission consider that failure to comply with<br />
subsection (1) may have affected the result <strong>of</strong> an election, it shall<br />
advise the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State on the validity <strong>of</strong> the election result<br />
and make public its advice.”<br />
Lord Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch: My Lords, as I mentioned<br />
at col. 893 during our last proceedings, this amendment<br />
is inspired by the very unsatisfactory events <strong>of</strong> 4 June<br />
during voting for the European <strong>Parliament</strong>. The name<br />
<strong>of</strong> my party, UKIP, which came last alphabetically on<br />
ballot papers, was folded over at the back <strong>of</strong> a large<br />
number <strong>of</strong> them. The result was that many hundreds<br />
<strong>of</strong> voters blocked our call centre saying that they<br />
could not find UKIP on the ballot paper and either<br />
asking what to do or telling us that they had voted for<br />
another party. I appreciate that a number <strong>of</strong> noble<br />
Lords may feel that this could not have happened to a<br />
nicer party, but it is worth recording that Mr Nick<br />
Griffin <strong>of</strong> the BNP won his seat from us in the<br />
north-west by only 1,300 votes.<br />
The problem appears to have been at its worst in the<br />
south-east, where I understand that we may have been<br />
denied another seat. It is certainly true that we received<br />
a great many complaints from voters in East Sussex,<br />
especially Bexhill; from West Sussex, especially around<br />
Worthing; from Hampshire, especially in Farnborough;<br />
and from Surrey, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire,<br />
especially in Aylesbury. Such inquiries as we have been<br />
able to make indicate two main causes: machine folding,<br />
perhaps before the ink was dry, by printers supplying<br />
local returning <strong>of</strong>ficers, and the manual folding <strong>of</strong><br />
ballot papers by polling clerks. This latter practice is<br />
encouraged by the Electoral Commission in its guide<br />
to polling station staff. Machine folding by printers<br />
appears to have been a major problem in Yorkshire,<br />
while manually folded papers caused serious problems<br />
in the eastern region and the West Midlands.<br />
Following a complaint from our party leader, Mr Nigel<br />
Farage, the commission did issue guidance on 4 June<br />
that all ballot papers should be handed out unfolded,<br />
but this followed only very late in the day, sometimes<br />
as late as 9 pm, and does not appear to have been<br />
generally followed at all in the north-west. As things<br />
stand at the moment, the onus appears to be on UKIP<br />
to discover exactly what happened and where, and if it<br />
can muster sufficient evidence, to mount a petition to<br />
the commission for a re-run. This is a prohibitively<br />
expensive task and one, I submit, that should not fall<br />
to the affected party but to the commission. I would<br />
have hoped that, at the very least, the commission<br />
would find out how many ballot papers with UKIP<br />
over the back were machine folded and where they<br />
were distributed, and how many were folded at polling<br />
stations. I would have thought that the commission<br />
should also employ a good independent psephologist,<br />
if it does not have one in-<strong>house</strong>, and publish an<br />
objective <strong>report</strong> drawing on all these inputs. If anything<br />
like this happens in the future, surely the commission<br />
should sort it out, not the damaged party. I look<br />
forward to the Minister’s view on these questions.<br />
I also wonder whether the commission should be<br />
empowered to oversee and direct regional and local<br />
returning <strong>of</strong>ficers on the printing, distribution and<br />
handling <strong>of</strong> ballot papers, especially when the list <strong>of</strong><br />
candidates is as long as it was in many areas on 4 June.<br />
I understand that the commission does not think that<br />
this amendment is necessary, so may I assume that it<br />
will be doing all the things I have suggested above<br />
under the present Act? If not, how will we get redress?<br />
What happens next? I look forward to the Minister’s<br />
reply and I beg to move.<br />
Lord Bates: My Lords, I shall comment briefly on<br />
the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson,<br />
and, in doing so, I recognise that it is <strong>of</strong> the utmost<br />
importance that people get the opportunity to vote for<br />
the party they wish to vote for.<br />
One <strong>of</strong> the consequences <strong>of</strong> the ever expanding list<br />
<strong>of</strong> parties seeking election under our proportional<br />
representation system for European elections is that<br />
the ballot paper is ever lengthening. An interesting<br />
point has been raised as to whether someone needs to<br />
think—forgive the pun—outside the box on this and<br />
consider whether the shape <strong>of</strong> the current ballot paper<br />
is the right one. The noble Lord’s amendment, which I<br />
assume is a probing amendment, might not be able<br />
to answer the point. If a burden is placed on people to<br />
ensure that papers are not folded, it might lead to<br />
disputes in polling stations. If a paper were folded<br />
there could be a discussion about whether it was done<br />
by one <strong>of</strong> the polling clerks or by the elector. I can<br />
foresee many such disputes.<br />
The noble Lord raises a valid point. If he cannot<br />
find satisfaction on this issue, he might consider changing<br />
his party’s name so that it appears further up the<br />
ballot paper. However, I do not wish to be guilty <strong>of</strong><br />
giving too much assistance to him.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, the amendment seeks to<br />
ensure that all ballot papers are handed out in polling<br />
stations with the paper flat in order to prevent the<br />
problem <strong>of</strong> folded papers potentially hiding the names<br />
<strong>of</strong> candidates from the sight <strong>of</strong> electors. The amendment<br />
would require the Electoral Commission to monitor<br />
whether that was done and to <strong>report</strong> on it, and to<br />
assess any adverse impacts if and when it was not<br />
done.<br />
Clarity for the elector and a level playing field for<br />
the parties are <strong>of</strong> course important factors, and I fully<br />
understand why the noble Lord has brought forward<br />
his amendment. It cannot be right that the nature <strong>of</strong><br />
the production <strong>of</strong> a ballot paper, or any other element<br />
<strong>of</strong> the administration <strong>of</strong> an election, should adversely<br />
impact on how electors vote or on the results for a<br />
party or candidate. In this instance, I understand that<br />
the production <strong>of</strong> the ballot papers with machine folds<br />
had caused the bottoms <strong>of</strong> the papers in some areas <strong>of</strong><br />
two regions—Yorkshire and the Humber and the South-<br />
East—to be bent upwards. It is <strong>report</strong>ed to have<br />
potentially obscured the names <strong>of</strong> one or a number <strong>of</strong><br />
candidates so that they were not apparent to electors<br />
as they marked their votes. There are, however, large<br />
versions <strong>of</strong> the ballot paper posted up in all polling<br />
stations to assist voters in making their choice.<br />
As I understand it from <strong>of</strong>ficials, action was taken<br />
to address the issue on 4 June, once the concerns <strong>of</strong><br />
the noble Lord and his party were raised in the morning.<br />
Indeed, I had the pleasure <strong>of</strong> speaking to the noble<br />
Lord that morning in the environs <strong>of</strong> this Chamber.<br />
This included the local returning <strong>of</strong>ficers in relevant<br />
areas being asked to ensure that ballot papers were
1155 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1156<br />
handed out flat, and then a subsequent notice to that<br />
effect was sent out from the Electoral Commission to<br />
all returning <strong>of</strong>ficers in the UK.<br />
The ballot papers for the elections were very long<br />
due to a significant number <strong>of</strong> candidates standing.<br />
For ease <strong>of</strong> transport and handling, I am told, they<br />
were folded to fit into cardboard boxes. That in itself<br />
is not a problem; rather, as the Government understand<br />
it, it is the position and nature <strong>of</strong> the folds that may<br />
have caused an issue in this instance. In fact, the<br />
Electoral Commission’s guidance, as contained in the<br />
handbook that it produces for polling station staff,<br />
actively suggests that the practice <strong>of</strong> folding the completed<br />
ballot paper before it is put in the ballot box in the<br />
polling station is maintained to ensure the secrecy <strong>of</strong><br />
the vote. So perhaps we should pause before moving to<br />
legislate in the manner proposed by the noble Lord.<br />
However, I suspect that this is a probing amendment<br />
and, if I may, I will treat it as such. I am therefore not<br />
going to criticise its wording because that would just<br />
be to waste time.<br />
9.30 pm<br />
Notwithstanding what I have said, the Electoral<br />
Commission has a statutory duty under Section 5 <strong>of</strong><br />
the PPER Act to prepare and publish a <strong>report</strong> on the<br />
administration <strong>of</strong> the European parliamentary elections.<br />
I understand that the commission has already undertaken<br />
to <strong>report</strong> on this issue in detail. It is right that we await<br />
the outcome <strong>of</strong> that <strong>report</strong> and consider the most<br />
appropriate way forward in the light <strong>of</strong> evidence.<br />
Pending receipt <strong>of</strong> that <strong>report</strong> and consideration <strong>of</strong> its<br />
conclusions, however, we think that the issue is best<br />
addressed for the moment by identifying best practice<br />
and issuing clear revised guidance on the production,<br />
supply and handling <strong>of</strong> ballot papers. I understand<br />
that the commission’s thinking is along these lines.<br />
The noble Lord raises an important issue. We are<br />
grateful to him, and we will respond accordingly as a<br />
Government once the full facts <strong>of</strong> the case are available.<br />
Lord Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch: My Lords, I am grateful<br />
to noble Lords who have spoken, particularly the<br />
Minister. Of course there is nothing wrong with a<br />
folded ballot paper, provided that it does not cause the<br />
problems that were caused on 4 June. I accept that<br />
greater secrecy is achieved by folded ballot papers, and<br />
I am also aware that there were large versions <strong>of</strong> the<br />
ballot paper in the polling booths. That did not stop<br />
hundreds <strong>of</strong> people ringing in and saying that they did<br />
not understand how to vote for UKIP. It is true, as I<br />
think I mentioned in my remarks, that the Electoral<br />
Commission issued instructions, and I am most grateful<br />
to the Minister for his interest on the day in question.<br />
It is also true, though, that those instructions did not<br />
appear until very late in the day. I hope that before<br />
Third Reading I will be able to get a better idea <strong>of</strong><br />
what the commission proposes to do in this case. In<br />
the mean time, though, I beg leave to withdraw the<br />
amendment.<br />
On a slightly separate subject, I am also extremely<br />
grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, for suggesting<br />
that I should rejoin his party. That, <strong>of</strong> course, depends<br />
on whether the Conservative Party joins me on another<br />
matter.<br />
Amendment 84A withdrawn.<br />
Amendment 85<br />
Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe<br />
85: Before Clause 25, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Establishment <strong>of</strong> corporation sole to be CORE keeper<br />
(1) Part 1 <strong>of</strong> the Electoral Administration Act 2006 (c. 22)<br />
(co-ordinated on-line record <strong>of</strong> electors) is amended as follows.<br />
(2) In section 1 (CORE schemes: establishment), in subsection (10),<br />
for “must be a public authority” there is substituted “must be—<br />
(a) a corporation sole established by an order under section<br />
3A, or<br />
(b) some other public authority”.<br />
(3) After section 3 there is inserted—<br />
“3A Establishment <strong>of</strong> corporation sole to be CORE keeper<br />
(1) The Secretary <strong>of</strong> State may by order establish a corporation<br />
sole (“the corporation”) with a view to its being designated by a<br />
CORE scheme as the CORE keeper.<br />
(2) The Secretary <strong>of</strong> State may also by order establish a panel<br />
(“the advisory panel”) to provide advice and support to the<br />
corporation.<br />
(3) An order under this section may make—<br />
(a) provision for and in connection with the appointment<br />
<strong>of</strong>—<br />
(i) the occupant <strong>of</strong> the corporation (“the <strong>of</strong>ficeholder”);<br />
(ii) directors <strong>of</strong> the corporation (including nonexecutive<br />
directors);<br />
(iii) one or more deputies to the <strong>of</strong>fice-holder;<br />
(iv) other <strong>of</strong>ficers or members <strong>of</strong> staff <strong>of</strong> the<br />
corporation;<br />
(v) members <strong>of</strong> the advisory panel.<br />
(b) provision about the terms and conditions <strong>of</strong><br />
appointment <strong>of</strong> persons referred to in paragraph (a)<br />
(including provision about how and by whom those<br />
terms and conditions are to be determined and provision<br />
as to their approval);<br />
(c) provision about the payment to or in respect <strong>of</strong> persons<br />
referred to in paragraph (a)(i) to (iv) <strong>of</strong> remuneration,<br />
allowances, expenses, pensions, gratuities or compensation<br />
for loss <strong>of</strong> employment;<br />
(d) provision about the payment <strong>of</strong> allowances and expenses<br />
to members <strong>of</strong> the advisory panel;<br />
(e) provision about the acquisition and disposal by the<br />
corporation, and in particular the transfer to the corporation<br />
by the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, <strong>of</strong> property, rights and liabilities;<br />
(f) provision about the transfer <strong>of</strong> staff to the corporation<br />
by the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State;<br />
(g) provision about the functions <strong>of</strong> the corporation and <strong>of</strong><br />
the advisory panel, and about delegation <strong>of</strong> functions <strong>of</strong><br />
the <strong>of</strong>fice-holder;<br />
(h) provision requiring the corporation to consult the<br />
advisory panel in relation to particular matters or in<br />
particular circumstances;<br />
(i) provision about accounts and <strong>report</strong>s, including—<br />
(i) provision requiring accounts and <strong>report</strong>s <strong>of</strong> the<br />
corporation to be laid before <strong>Parliament</strong> and<br />
published;<br />
(ii) provision about auditing <strong>of</strong> accounts;<br />
(j) provision about the name <strong>of</strong> the corporation and <strong>of</strong> the<br />
advisory panel;<br />
(k) incidental, supplementary, consequential or transitional<br />
provision.
1157 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1158<br />
(4) An order under this section may add such entries to—<br />
(a) the Table in paragraph 3 <strong>of</strong> Schedule 1 to the Public<br />
Records Act 1958,<br />
(b) Schedule 2 to the <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Commissioner Act 1967,<br />
(c) Schedule 1 to the House <strong>of</strong> Commons Disqualification<br />
Act 1975, or<br />
(d) Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly<br />
Disqualification Act 1975,<br />
as the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State considers appropriate in<br />
consequence <strong>of</strong> the establishment <strong>of</strong> the corporation or<br />
the advisory panel.<br />
(5) The Secretary <strong>of</strong> State may make payments to the corporation<br />
<strong>of</strong> such amounts, at such times and on such conditions (if any) as<br />
the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State considers appropriate.<br />
(6) Neither the corporation nor any person referred to in<br />
subsection (3)(a)(i) to (iv) nor the advisory panel is to be regarded<br />
as a servant or agent <strong>of</strong> the Crown or as enjoying any status,<br />
immunity or privilege <strong>of</strong> the Crown.”<br />
(4) In section 6 (CORE schemes: procedure)—<br />
(a) in subsection (1), after “section 1” there is inserted “or<br />
3A”;<br />
(b) after subsection (5) there is inserted—<br />
“(6) An order under section 3A must not be made unless the<br />
Secretary <strong>of</strong> State first consults—<br />
(a) the Electoral Commission;<br />
(b) the Information Commissioner.””<br />
Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I am moving these<br />
amendments today as they are necessary to the successful<br />
implementation <strong>of</strong> the co-ordinated online record <strong>of</strong><br />
electors, or CORE, scheme. The amendments are essential<br />
to ensure that there is authority to create a new<br />
non-departmental public body to fulfil the role <strong>of</strong> the<br />
CORE keeper. Until November 2008 it was intended<br />
that the Electoral Commission would fulfil this role,<br />
and the Electoral Administration Act 2006 makes<br />
provision for that. Following the recommendations<br />
from the Committee on Standards in Public Life,<br />
however, the commission is seeking to refocus its<br />
functions and concentrate on enhancing its regulatory<br />
role. The Government agree with the commission that<br />
this is the right thing to do.<br />
Furthermore, the Government have now brought<br />
forward our proposals for the introduction <strong>of</strong> a scheme<br />
<strong>of</strong> individual registration. It is quite likely that we will<br />
require a central point through which electors’ personal<br />
identifiers, such as national insurance numbers, may<br />
be validated with the relevant authority, and CORE<br />
may provide that service. Such a role does not currently<br />
fit with the Electoral Commission’s redefined regulatory<br />
role, but it is important that the public body taking on<br />
this role is demonstrably independent from government.<br />
In bringing these amendments forward, therefore, we<br />
will ensure that the CORE scheme can be delivered<br />
without delay, and that the necessary infrastructure<br />
can be developed to facilitate the introduction <strong>of</strong><br />
individual registration.<br />
The new clause that is brought in by Amendment 85<br />
inserts new Section 3A into the 2006 Act to enable the<br />
Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, by order, to establish a new nondepartmental<br />
public body in the form <strong>of</strong> a corporation<br />
sole with a view to its being designated by a CORE<br />
scheme as the CORE keeper.<br />
This type <strong>of</strong> body is considered appropriate for<br />
three reasons. First, it would comprise a single <strong>of</strong>ficeholder,<br />
meaning that there is an identifiable decision-maker<br />
for accountability purposes. This is regarded as important<br />
because the CORE keeper’s functions under the<br />
2006 Act will include the receiving and processing <strong>of</strong><br />
electoral registration information from EROs. Secondly,<br />
it would achieve the right balance between daily<br />
operational independence and accountability to<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong> via the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, who would<br />
appoint the <strong>of</strong>fice-holder. Finally, a single identifiable<br />
decision-maker is similar in concept to an electoral<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficer, and is therefore a model that is<br />
established and well understood within the electoral<br />
administration field.<br />
Taking a power to create the corporation sole in<br />
secondary legislation is designed to provide an appropriate<br />
degree <strong>of</strong> flexibility so that the precise detail <strong>of</strong> the<br />
structure and operation <strong>of</strong> the body, and the timing <strong>of</strong><br />
its creation, can be developed consistently with the<br />
CORE scheme order. The amendment provides for<br />
necessary matters <strong>of</strong> detail concerning the creation <strong>of</strong><br />
the corporation sole to be addressed in the order, and<br />
makes provision for a number <strong>of</strong> matters that would<br />
be consequential on the establishment <strong>of</strong> the corporation<br />
sole. In particular, it amends Section 1(10) <strong>of</strong> the<br />
2006 Act expressly to provide that a person designated<br />
as the CORE keeper under the CORE scheme must be<br />
a corporation sole established under the new power, or<br />
some other public authority. This preserves the ability<br />
for another public authority to take on the role <strong>of</strong><br />
CORE keeper if that is considered appropriate in the<br />
future. It also provides for an order establishing the<br />
new corporation sole to be subject to the affirmative<br />
resolution procedure and provides that, before the<br />
order can be made, the Electoral Commission and the<br />
Information Commissioner must be consulted. These<br />
requirements are designed to ensure that the order will<br />
be subject to a high degree <strong>of</strong> scrutiny.<br />
Moving on to the other amendments, Amendment 86<br />
is intended to provide additional protections around<br />
access to the electoral register from the CORE keeper.<br />
The effect <strong>of</strong> current provisions in the 2006 Act is that<br />
the regulations governing the supply <strong>of</strong> the electoral<br />
register by EROs will also apply to the CORE keeper,<br />
subject to any modifications that the Secretary <strong>of</strong><br />
State considers appropriate. This means that bodies<br />
entitled to receive copies <strong>of</strong> the electoral registers and<br />
related information from EROs will be entitled to<br />
receive the same information from the CORE keeper,<br />
subject to the same restrictions on access and use. This<br />
does not expand the range <strong>of</strong> bodies with access to the<br />
registers, but the creation <strong>of</strong> the CORE scheme would<br />
enable the registers to be accessed from a single source<br />
on a national scale. In light <strong>of</strong> this, specific arrangements<br />
may be required where information is supplied by the<br />
CORE keeper to ensure that the provision <strong>of</strong> data is<br />
appropriate. Accordingly, Amendment 86 supplements<br />
the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State’s existing power to modify the<br />
application <strong>of</strong> the regulations by enabling additional<br />
or different conditions to be imposed on the supply <strong>of</strong><br />
material by the CORE keeper.<br />
Amendment 87 relates to Section 3 <strong>of</strong> the Juries<br />
Act 1974, which currently requires EROs to supply<br />
copies <strong>of</strong> the register for the purpose <strong>of</strong> jury summoning.<br />
Once the CORE system is operational, it may be more<br />
efficient and convenient for the registers to be supplied<br />
on a national scale by the CORE keeper, rather than
1159 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1160<br />
by each individual ERO. Accordingly, this amendment<br />
takes a power to amend Section 3 <strong>of</strong> the Juries Act to<br />
provide for this, but it would not allow anyone who is<br />
not already entitled to access the register from EROs<br />
to do so from the CORE keeper.<br />
Finally, Amendment 88 extends the Secretary <strong>of</strong><br />
State’s existing powers in relation to the CORE scheme<br />
order so that the order can authorise information<br />
sharing between the CORE keeper and the Electoral<br />
Commission. As I have already detailed, the original<br />
intention was for the Electoral Commission to be the<br />
CORE keeper. However, now that this is not to be the<br />
case, it is important that the CORE keeper is able to<br />
furnish the commission with information that is relevant<br />
to its functions. It is envisaged that the power may be<br />
exercised to enable the CORE keeper to provide the<br />
Electoral Commission with statistical <strong>report</strong>s, for example,<br />
regarding registration patterns or the number <strong>of</strong><br />
notifications made by the CORE keeper to EROs<br />
about circumstances that may be indicative <strong>of</strong> absent<br />
voter fraud or other improprieties. The power may<br />
also be used to enable the CORE keeper to inform the<br />
commission where an ERO has failed to <strong>report</strong> back<br />
to the CORE keeper on steps taken to investigate<br />
potential instances <strong>of</strong> fraud or other improprieties, as<br />
may be required in the CORE scheme order. I beg<br />
to move.<br />
Amendment 85 agreed.<br />
Clause 25 : CORE information and action to be taken<br />
by electoral registration <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
Amendments 86 to 88<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
86: Clause 25, page 26, line 6, at end insert—<br />
“( ) At the end <strong>of</strong> subsection (3) there is inserted—<br />
“Modifications under this subsection may, in particular,<br />
provide for the supply <strong>of</strong> material by a CORE keeper to<br />
be subject to conditions or restrictions which do not<br />
apply in the case <strong>of</strong> an ERO (or which differ from those<br />
that apply in the case <strong>of</strong> an ERO).””<br />
87: Clause 25, page 26, line 6, at end insert—<br />
“( ) After subsection (4) there is inserted—<br />
“(4A) A CORE scheme may amend section 3 <strong>of</strong> the Juries<br />
Act 1974 (electoral register as basis <strong>of</strong> jury selection)—<br />
(a) so as to require a CORE keeper to supply a designated<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer with any documents or information referred to in<br />
that section (as it had effect immediately before the<br />
establishment <strong>of</strong> the scheme), and to make provision as<br />
to when the CORE keeper is to do so;<br />
(b) so as to require an ERO to supply a designated <strong>of</strong>ficer<br />
with any such documents or information, but only when<br />
requested to do so by the <strong>of</strong>ficer.<br />
In this subsection “designated <strong>of</strong>ficer” means an <strong>of</strong>ficer<br />
designated by the Lord Chancellor.””<br />
88: Clause 25, page 26, line 30, at end insert—<br />
“( ) After that subsection there is inserted—<br />
“(11A) A CORE scheme may authorise the CORE keeper to<br />
supply information to the Electoral Commission.””<br />
Amendments 86 to 88 agreed.<br />
Clause 26 : Voluntary provision <strong>of</strong> identifying<br />
information<br />
Amendment 89<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
89: Clause 26, page 27, line 20, leave out subsection (7)<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, the Government have tabled a<br />
number <strong>of</strong> amendments to the individual registration<br />
clauses. Many <strong>of</strong> these, with the exception <strong>of</strong> Amendments<br />
90, 91, 92, 99, 100, 101, 114 and 117, are minor<br />
technical changes that tidy up the way that these<br />
clauses are intended to work and I do not propose to<br />
say anything about them. There are also a small number<br />
<strong>of</strong> more significant changes that I will describe shortly.<br />
I do not think that I need to go into detail at this hour<br />
about the importance <strong>of</strong> the shift to individual registration,<br />
which as a principle I know has the support <strong>of</strong> all the<br />
main parties in the House. It marks a significant point<br />
in the evolution <strong>of</strong> our electoral registration processes<br />
in Great Britain.<br />
I wish to mention briefly five changes. The first<br />
concerns Amendment 90, which amends Clause 27(2)(d)<br />
to broaden the purposes for which EROs can check<br />
information provided from the national insurance number<br />
(NINO) database during the voluntary phase <strong>of</strong> individual<br />
registration. The purpose <strong>of</strong> this amendment is to give<br />
EROs more flexibility in using data from the NINO<br />
database, while also ensuring that data are used only<br />
for appropriate purposes relating to checking a person’s<br />
entitlement to vote.<br />
Amendment 91 provides for the disclosure <strong>of</strong><br />
information by the CORE keeper to a registration<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer for the purposes <strong>of</strong> registration. Amendment 101<br />
introduces a requirement for registration <strong>of</strong>ficers to<br />
provide assistance to the Electoral Commission for<br />
the purpose <strong>of</strong> compiling their <strong>report</strong>s, and thus is<br />
very close to what the Official Opposition are looking<br />
for in their Amendment 96. In practice this is likely to<br />
cover the provision <strong>of</strong> information that the commission<br />
is likely to require. The Electoral Commission specifically<br />
asked if we might include this requirement in our<br />
legislation.<br />
Amendments 99 and 100 make a number <strong>of</strong><br />
amendments to the steps the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State needs<br />
to take in the event that there is not a positive endorsement<br />
<strong>of</strong> the shift to individual registration in 2014 by either<br />
the Electoral Commission or <strong>Parliament</strong>. If noble<br />
Lords require more detail on those amendments, I<br />
shall be happy to give them that information. Those<br />
are the government amendments in short. I shall now<br />
sit down as I know that there are opposition amendments<br />
in this group. I beg to move.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble<br />
Lord for explaining the government amendments. I<br />
wish to comment briefly on the two amendments in<br />
my name and that <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord Bates, and<br />
on Amendment 98, to which I imagine the noble Lord,<br />
Lord Tyler, will want to speak, and which my noble<br />
friend and I also support.<br />
As regards Amendments 96 and 97, in light <strong>of</strong> what<br />
the noble Lord said about achieving most <strong>of</strong> what we<br />
were trying to do in those amendments, and in view <strong>of</strong>
1161 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1162<br />
the lateness <strong>of</strong> the hour I assure noble Lords that I<br />
shall not move those amendments when we come to<br />
them. As regards Amendment 98, I make it clear<br />
again, as we did in Committee, that we still find it odd<br />
that the Government are trying to insist that nothing<br />
can go ahead before 2014, whatever happens. That is<br />
why we strongly support the amendment in the name<br />
<strong>of</strong> the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Rennard,<br />
myself and my noble friend Lord Bates. That amendment<br />
makes it clear that if the commission believes that an<br />
appropriate assessment has been made, as provided by<br />
subsection (4)(a), a recommendation can then be made<br />
that the process should go ahead. Most <strong>of</strong> us, being<br />
rather cynical, suspect that there are political motives<br />
behind this and that we are not allowed, if things are<br />
ready, to move ahead <strong>of</strong> the date 2014, if that is<br />
possible. It might be that the Government have been<br />
conservative, and it might not be possible to get things<br />
moving by 2014, but it might be that we are easily<br />
ready for that date. When the noble Lord, Lord Tyler,<br />
comes to move his Amendment 98, which we are<br />
supporting, we will certainly give it our backing. I do<br />
not know what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, intends to<br />
do with it at this late hour on a Wednesday evening. If<br />
he feels it is inappropriate to divide what I imagine is a<br />
fairly empty House at this hour, he might consider<br />
coming back to it at Report stage. Certainly, as this is<br />
happening at a late hour, we would reserve the right to<br />
consider that if it was necessary.<br />
Lord Tyler: My noble Lords, I think the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Henley, means the Third Reading for a<br />
further look at this. We are getting to the stage now<br />
when we are all a bit punch-drunk.<br />
The integrity <strong>of</strong> the register is incredibly important<br />
and we welcome the moves that the Government are<br />
making towards personal identifiers. I think I am right<br />
in saying that the Electoral Commission made its<br />
recommendations as long ago as 2003. It is a very long<br />
time ago; we ought to have made more progress by<br />
now. As the noble Lord, Lord Henley, said, the<br />
purpose <strong>of</strong> Amendment 98, standing in my name and<br />
that <strong>of</strong> my noble friend Lord Rennard and supported<br />
by the noble Lords, Lord Henley and Lord Bates, is to<br />
try to build back into the Bill a little more flexibility. If<br />
we can make some progress, it surely would be right to<br />
do so.<br />
In Grand Committee, the argument that the Minister<br />
gave was that if we were to move more quickly it might<br />
conflict with the run-up to the general election. He is<br />
obviously greatly better informed that I am, because<br />
who knows when the election after next is likely to be?<br />
We might indeed find ourselves with a very short<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>. I was the victim <strong>of</strong> the very short <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
in 1974—in and out within eight months. Who knows?<br />
I therefore do not regard that argument as being<br />
conclusive, unless <strong>of</strong> course the Government are going<br />
to move towards fixed-term <strong>Parliament</strong>s as part <strong>of</strong><br />
their package <strong>of</strong> reform proposals that are due any<br />
moment now.<br />
We simply thought that it was sensible to ask the<br />
Electoral Commission not to be boxed into a corner <strong>of</strong><br />
automatically doing nothing until 2014 and that if<br />
there was a possibility <strong>of</strong> moving further and faster,<br />
we should do so. But we recognise also that there are<br />
important reasons why that may not be possible. We<br />
are not precluding the possibility <strong>of</strong> waiting until<br />
2014; we are simply saying that if we can move further,<br />
faster and earlier we should so.<br />
I shall listen with interest to what the Minister says<br />
on this subject in a moment. I assume that he is going<br />
to address that particular point, and then we will have<br />
to think very carefully whether it is appropriate to<br />
pursue this any further at this late hour, or whether it<br />
is more sensible to look at it again, in the light <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Minister’s response, in time for Third Reading.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords.<br />
Amendment 98 is an important amendment. It provides<br />
the Electoral Commission with a discretion to make<br />
an assessment before 2014 <strong>of</strong> whether the registration<br />
objectives would be helped or hindered by a move<br />
towards the compulsory collection <strong>of</strong> personal identifiers.<br />
In tandem, it also provides the commission with the<br />
ability to make a recommendation before that date on<br />
whether the provision <strong>of</strong> identifiers should be made<br />
compulsory. Our proposal is well known.<br />
Of course, I am aware that some noble Lords<br />
believe that we should be moving more quickly towards<br />
a system <strong>of</strong> individual registration. As I argued in<br />
Grand Committee, a phased approach is the only way<br />
to ensure that this very radical change is made effectively.<br />
We should not rush it. The specific timetable we have<br />
set out delivers on this phased approach. It has been<br />
developed with great care, with due regard to the<br />
magnitude <strong>of</strong> the change and the risks involved. What<br />
this timetable allows is, first, sufficient time for the<br />
public to acclimatise itself to the change; secondly,<br />
time for each and every one <strong>of</strong> the 400-plus electoral<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficers to adapt to the new system and to<br />
ensure that all are working to the level <strong>of</strong> the best;<br />
thirdly, time to investigate and test which public sector<br />
databases will be <strong>of</strong> most assistance to registration<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficers in targeting people not included on the register;<br />
and, finally, time to design the infrastructure for the<br />
validation <strong>of</strong> national insurance numbers, which will<br />
underpin the new system. Importantly, the proposed<br />
timetable will also allow us to minimise disruption to<br />
elections by avoiding, so far as is possible, national<br />
and sub-national elections, such as the 2014 elections<br />
to the European <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
In developing that timetable, we have paid careful<br />
attention to the Northern Ireland experience when<br />
implementing individual registration. That is an<br />
important point in my argument. The registration<br />
rate fell significantly in Northern Ireland when<br />
individual registration was introduced. There is an<br />
ongoing debate about why that happened, and at least<br />
some <strong>of</strong> the decrease in the numbers registered in<br />
Northern Ireland in 2002 was due to the removal <strong>of</strong><br />
the carry-forward, but the Electoral Commission’s<br />
analysis tells us that the impact <strong>of</strong> that change was<br />
keenly felt among particular groups. It states that<br />
individual registration,<br />
“tended to have an adverse impact on disadvantaged, marginalised<br />
and hard-to-reach groups. Young people and students, people<br />
with learning disabilities and other forms <strong>of</strong> disability, and those<br />
living in areas <strong>of</strong> high social deprivation were less likely to be<br />
registered and encountered specific problems with the new registration<br />
process”.
1163 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1164<br />
It goes on:<br />
“While these findings relate directly to Northern Ireland, they<br />
are not unique and reflect the wider picture across the UK. They<br />
present a major challenge to all those concerned with widening<br />
participation in electoral and democratic processes”.<br />
That comment is important.<br />
We all agree that making the shift towards individual<br />
registration is right but, in doing so, we have to ensure<br />
that we do not disfranchise large numbers <strong>of</strong> people<br />
who may find the new system more onerous. That<br />
becomes especially important when you consider that<br />
already an estimated 3 million individuals are not<br />
registered to vote. We must do all we can to ensure that<br />
that figure does not increase. By taking time to prepare<br />
both the system and the public for the change, to<br />
analyse registration performance and to develop a<br />
better understanding <strong>of</strong> the issues impacting on<br />
registration rates, we mitigate the risk <strong>of</strong> that outcome.<br />
Now more than ever, we need to ensure that we do not<br />
take steps that risk discouraging individuals from<br />
engaging in our democracy. A more effective and<br />
secure registration system is more likely to be achieved<br />
by building in time, to ensure to that the factors that I<br />
have mentioned can be fully taken into account in a<br />
realistic timeframe. That is what our proposal is designed<br />
to achieve.<br />
The work that I have described would be vital to the<br />
success or otherwise <strong>of</strong> the shift to compulsory individual<br />
registration. The Electoral Commission’s <strong>report</strong>s will<br />
provide invaluable evidence about registration rates,<br />
the performance <strong>of</strong> EROs and the operation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
system, which will inform our understanding <strong>of</strong> its<br />
preparedness for the change. Without that information,<br />
we cannot have a full understanding <strong>of</strong> whether the<br />
system is ready for the shift. We must protect the space<br />
for the Electoral Commission to undertake proper<br />
and robust analysis during the voluntary phase. It is<br />
only on the basis <strong>of</strong> that evidence that we can be<br />
confident that the system can withstand the change.<br />
If the idea is that a pre-2014 recommendation<br />
should be permissible and brought before <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
if made in favour <strong>of</strong> individual registration, we would<br />
resist that. Furthermore, the existing proposed timetable<br />
is a fair balance between the role <strong>of</strong> the Electoral<br />
Commission and that <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>. It is right that<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong> should set the agenda for moving towards<br />
a compulsory phase, taking into account the<br />
recommendations <strong>of</strong> the commission. A decision as<br />
historic as this should be made only after a thorough<br />
and informed parliamentary debate.<br />
The purpose <strong>of</strong> a phased approach to implementation<br />
is to ensure that we take the necessary time to bolster,<br />
adapt and improve the current system for registration,<br />
in readiness for the major shift in process. Any attempts<br />
to introduce individual registration at a faster rate<br />
might risk damaging the integrity <strong>of</strong> the system and,<br />
worse still, the public’s confidence in it. If that were to<br />
happen in the run-up to a general election, the<br />
consequences could be dire.<br />
That is the Government’s argument as to why the<br />
amendment in the name <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Tyler, should not be moved.<br />
Amendment 89 agreed.<br />
Clause 27 : Regulations amending or supplementing<br />
section 26<br />
Amendments 90 to 95<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
90: Clause 27, page 28, line 8, at end insert “or checking a<br />
person’s entitlement to be registered in a register”<br />
91: Clause 27, page 28, line 11, at end insert—<br />
“(ee) provision for the disclosure by a CORE keeper to a<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficer, for the purpose mentioned in<br />
paragraph (d), <strong>of</strong> information within sub-paragraph (i)<br />
or (ii) <strong>of</strong> that paragraph;”<br />
92: Clause 27, page 28, line 14, at end insert—<br />
“(2A) Information obtained by a registration <strong>of</strong>ficer or CORE<br />
keeper under regulations made by virtue <strong>of</strong> subsection (2)(d) or<br />
(ee) may not be disclosed by the <strong>of</strong>ficer or CORE keeper except—<br />
(a) for the purpose mentioned in subsection (2)(d), or<br />
(b) for the purposes <strong>of</strong> any criminal or civil proceedings,<br />
or, in the case <strong>of</strong> information obtained by a registration<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer, to a person to whom the <strong>of</strong>ficer may delegate his<br />
or her functions.<br />
(2B) A person who discloses information in breach <strong>of</strong> subsection<br />
(2A) is guilty <strong>of</strong> an <strong>of</strong>fence and liable—<br />
(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term<br />
not exceeding two years, or to a fine, or to both;<br />
(b) on summary conviction in England and Wales and<br />
Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding<br />
12 months, or to a fine not exceeding the statutory<br />
maximum, or to both;<br />
(c) on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to<br />
imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to a<br />
fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both.”<br />
93: Clause 27, page 28, line 25, leave out “section” and insert<br />
“Part”<br />
94: Clause 27, page 28, leave out lines 42 to 44<br />
95: Clause 27, page 28, leave out line 46<br />
Amendments 90 to 95 agreed.<br />
Clause 28 : Report by Electoral Commission on<br />
provision <strong>of</strong> identifying information<br />
Amendments 96 to 98 not moved.<br />
Amendments 99 to 102<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
99: Clause 28, page 29, line 42, leave out “the Secretary <strong>of</strong><br />
State may require the Electoral” and insert “within 12 months<br />
after the day on which the <strong>report</strong> is submitted by the Electoral<br />
Commission (in the case mentioned in paragraph (a)) or disapproved<br />
in <strong>Parliament</strong> (in the case mentioned in paragraph (b)), the<br />
Secretary <strong>of</strong> State must require the”<br />
100: Clause 28, page 29, line 45, leave out subsection (8) and<br />
insert—<br />
“(8) For the purposes <strong>of</strong> subsection (7)—<br />
(a) a <strong>report</strong> is disapproved in <strong>Parliament</strong> when either House<br />
decides against resolving to approve the <strong>report</strong> (or, if<br />
both Houses so decide on different days, when the first<br />
<strong>of</strong> them so decides);
1165 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1166<br />
(b) the date specified by the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State must be at<br />
least one year, but no more than two years, after the day<br />
on which the requirement under that subsection is<br />
imposed.”<br />
101: Clause 28, page 30, line 2, at end insert—<br />
“()Aregistration <strong>of</strong>ficer must comply with any request made<br />
in writing by the Electoral Commission for assistance that they<br />
reasonably require in connection with the preparation <strong>of</strong> a <strong>report</strong><br />
under this section.”<br />
102: Clause 28, page 30, leave out line 6<br />
Amendments 99 to 102 agreed.<br />
Amendment 103<br />
Moved by Lord Henley<br />
103: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Personal identifiers at the ballot box<br />
(1) Schedule 1 (parliamentary election rules) to the Representation<br />
<strong>of</strong> the People Act 1983 is amended as follows.<br />
(2) After rule 37(1) (ballot paper to be delivered to voter on<br />
application) there is inserted—<br />
“(1A) A ballot paper shall not be delivered to a voter unless he<br />
has produced a specified document to the presiding <strong>of</strong>ficer or a<br />
clerk.<br />
(1B) Where a voter produces a specified document, the presiding<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer or clerk to whom it is produced shall deliver a ballot paper<br />
to the voter unless the <strong>of</strong>ficer or clerk decides that the document<br />
raises a reasonable doubt as to whether the voter is the elector or<br />
proxy he represents himself to be.<br />
(1C) Where a voter produces a specified document to a<br />
presiding <strong>of</strong>ficer and he so decides, the presiding <strong>of</strong>ficer shall<br />
refuse to deliver a ballot paper to the voter.<br />
(1D) Where a voter produces a specified document to a clerk<br />
and he so decides, he shall refer the matter and produce the<br />
document to the presiding <strong>of</strong>ficer who shall proceed as if the<br />
document has been produced to him in the first place.<br />
(1E) For the purposes <strong>of</strong> this rule the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State must,<br />
as soon as is practicable, after consultation with the Electoral<br />
Commission, designate by order what the “specified document”<br />
or “specified documents” are.<br />
(1F) The power to make an order under paragraph (1E) is<br />
exercisable by statutory instrument.<br />
(1G) No order may be made under paragraph (1E) unless a<br />
draft <strong>of</strong> the instrument containing the order has been laid before<br />
and approved by a resolution <strong>of</strong> each House <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
(1H) Orders made under paragraph (1E) may be subject to<br />
alteration by subsequent orders made by the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State in<br />
consultation with the Electoral Commission.<br />
(1I) References in this rule to producing a document are to<br />
producing it for inspection.”<br />
(3) After rule 38(1) (incapacitated voter’s vote to be marked on<br />
ballot paper on application) there is inserted—<br />
“(1A) Paragraphs (1A) to (1G) <strong>of</strong> rule 37 shall apply in the<br />
case <strong>of</strong> a voter who applies under paragraph (1) above as they<br />
apply in the case <strong>of</strong> a voter who applies under rule 37(1), but<br />
reading references to delivering a ballot paper to a voter as<br />
references to causing a voter’s vote to be marked on a ballot<br />
paper.”.<br />
(4) After rule 39(2) (blind voter to be allowed assistance <strong>of</strong><br />
companion on application) there is inserted—<br />
“(2A) Paragraphs (1A) to (1G) <strong>of</strong> rule 37 shall apply in the<br />
case <strong>of</strong> a voter who applies under paragraph (1) above as they<br />
apply in the case <strong>of</strong> a voter who applies under rule 37(1), but<br />
reading references to delivering a ballot paper to a voter as<br />
references to granting a voter’s application.”.<br />
(5) After rule 40(1) (person entitled to mark tendered ballot<br />
paper after another has voted) there is inserted—<br />
“(1A) Paragraphs (1A) to (1G) <strong>of</strong> rule 37 shall apply in the<br />
case <strong>of</strong> a person who seeks to mark a tendered ballot paper under<br />
paragraph (1) above as they apply in the case <strong>of</strong> a voter who<br />
applies for a ballot paper under rule 37(1).<br />
(1B) Paragraph (1C) below applies where a presiding <strong>of</strong>ficer<br />
refuses to deliver a ballot paper to a person under paragraph (1C)<br />
<strong>of</strong> rule 37 (including that paragraph as applied by rule 38 or 39 or<br />
this rule).<br />
(1C) The person shall, on satisfactorily answering the questions<br />
permitted by law to be asked at the poll, nevertheless be entitled,<br />
subject to the following provisions <strong>of</strong> this rule, to mark a ballot<br />
paper (in these rules referred to as “a tendered ballot paper”) in<br />
the same manner as any other voter.”.<br />
(6) After rule 40(4) there is inserted—<br />
“(5) A person who marks a tendered ballot paper under<br />
paragraph (1C) shall sign the paper, unless it was marked after an<br />
application was refused under rule 38 or 39.<br />
(6) A paper which is required to be signed under paragraph (5)<br />
above and is not so signed shall be void.”.”<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, this amendment brings in<br />
personal identifiers at the ballot box. I spoke on this<br />
issue in our long debate on IVR in Grand Committee.<br />
At that point, I said that I did not think that fraud at<br />
the ballot box in the form <strong>of</strong> personation was that<br />
serious a problem. I have since been advised that it is,<br />
in fact, a growing problem, mainly in local elections,<br />
because personation is quite difficult to do in large<br />
numbers. However, in <strong>house</strong>s <strong>of</strong> multiple occupancy<br />
and similar establishments it is <strong>of</strong>ten easy for people to<br />
pick up a number <strong>of</strong> different polling cards and use<br />
them to vote in the names <strong>of</strong> other people.<br />
When he responded in Committee, the Minister did<br />
not consider this to be a serious problem and did not<br />
seem to think that merely providing some pro<strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong><br />
identity would necessarily deal with it, because one<br />
would have to decide what type <strong>of</strong> pro<strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong> identity<br />
would have to be produced. In the previous group <strong>of</strong><br />
amendments, the noble Lord prayed in aid Northern<br />
Ireland legislation. We have taken our amendment<br />
from legislation in Northern Ireland whereby voters<br />
have to have personal identifiers, but we have left out<br />
the bit that specifies the document that would have to<br />
be produced by the individual when they turned up at<br />
the polling station. We have left it for the Secretary <strong>of</strong><br />
State to designate that by order.<br />
Most <strong>of</strong> us normally carry some form <strong>of</strong> identification<br />
that would be enough to stamp out most fraud <strong>of</strong> this<br />
sort—a driving licence or even a credit card. If people<br />
were required to take credit cards, which obviously do<br />
not have photo ID on them, it would complicate the<br />
whole matter and would make it that much harder for<br />
them to commit fraud on a large scale, which must be<br />
our issue <strong>of</strong> concern.<br />
I feel quite strongly about this amendment, but I<br />
shall listen carefully to what the noble Lord has to say<br />
about it. At this hour, whether we press this to a vote<br />
will depend very much on the support I receive from<br />
other parts <strong>of</strong> the House and on the response I get<br />
from the Government as to whether they will consider<br />
bringing this measure forward at a future date. I beg to<br />
move.<br />
Lord Tyler: My Lords, all that I want to say at this<br />
stage is that I know from friends who have experience<br />
<strong>of</strong> Northern Ireland that they think that the requirement
1167 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1168<br />
for personal identification is natural. They are so used<br />
to it that they do not think that this matter should be<br />
controversial. Frankly, at this time <strong>of</strong> night we are not<br />
going to have a substantial debate, but we may well<br />
wish to return to this issue at Third Reading. I hope<br />
that the Minister will give some thought to what could<br />
be done, because there is a genuine concern that if we<br />
are to move in this direction we need to ensure that it<br />
works as effectively as it does in Northern Ireland.<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, the amendment would require<br />
electors to produce evidence <strong>of</strong> their identity in order<br />
to be issued with a ballot paper at a polling station in<br />
an election. The purpose is to strengthen the security<br />
<strong>of</strong> the voting process at polling stations. Of course,<br />
voting at polling stations has traditionally been conducted<br />
without the need for any personal identification to be<br />
produced.<br />
However, as we have been told, it is an <strong>of</strong>fence to<br />
attempt to vote in place <strong>of</strong> another elector. That is<br />
personation. The Electoral Commission has provided<br />
guidance for returning <strong>of</strong>ficers on the actions that<br />
polling station staff should take if they suspect that a<br />
person requesting a ballot paper is not who they claim<br />
to be. It has encouraged returning <strong>of</strong>ficers to supply<br />
copies <strong>of</strong> this guidance to all presiding <strong>of</strong>ficers. The<br />
commission and the Association <strong>of</strong> Chief Police Officers<br />
have also worked together to produce guidance for<br />
police <strong>of</strong>ficers on how they should respond to any<br />
incidents <strong>of</strong> personation at polling stations.<br />
10 pm<br />
Any proposal to require voters in polling stations in<br />
Great Britain to produce ID as envisaged under the<br />
amendment would need very careful consideration.<br />
Though the amendment provides for a wide range <strong>of</strong><br />
documents that may be produced as evidence <strong>of</strong> identity<br />
at polling stations, the Government remain <strong>of</strong> the<br />
view that requiring identification might present<br />
considerable barriers to voting at elections for some<br />
individuals. I note from the Electoral Commission’s<br />
briefing note that it is also <strong>of</strong> this view, stating:<br />
“While we would welcome such consultation, we believe that<br />
the benefits <strong>of</strong> moving to a system <strong>of</strong> ID in polling stations would<br />
need to be carefully considered before deciding on whether legislation<br />
should be introduced, so as to examine the risk that it could<br />
disenfranchise some electors”.<br />
The requirement to produce evidence <strong>of</strong> identity<br />
would be a significant change; we must ensure that<br />
any approach is aligned with other reforms to the<br />
registration and electoral processes that are a part <strong>of</strong><br />
this Bill. It would be premature at this stage to introduce<br />
identifiers in order to vote before we have had the<br />
chance to scrutinise the feasibility and any subsequent<br />
effectiveness <strong>of</strong> moving to a system that requires identifiers<br />
to be produced in order to register to vote.<br />
It is perhaps worth mentioning the recent information<br />
published on 1 May by ACPO and the Electoral<br />
Commission, which allows us for the first time to<br />
examine the extent and nature <strong>of</strong> allegations <strong>of</strong> electoral<br />
malpractice. From the information published, it is<br />
evident that there were 13 alleged cases <strong>of</strong> personation<br />
at the 2008 elections, with no further action being<br />
taken in at least six <strong>of</strong> these cases. While any instance<br />
<strong>of</strong> personation is unacceptable, these figures must be<br />
seen in the context <strong>of</strong> the 16 million votes that were<br />
cast at those elections. Any response must be<br />
proportionate.<br />
Our view is that, while not rejecting this out <strong>of</strong><br />
hand, the available evidence does not justify the potential<br />
barriers to voting that the measure proposed by noble<br />
Lords might well put in place. This Government are<br />
prepared to take forward significant reform <strong>of</strong> the<br />
electoral system as, I hope, the introduction <strong>of</strong> individual<br />
registration clearly demonstrates. The approach we<br />
have taken to ensure that we strengthen the integrity<br />
<strong>of</strong> the system on a step-by-step basis, in the light <strong>of</strong><br />
available evidence, in a way that does not disfranchise<br />
those electors who are entitled to cast their vote, is the<br />
right one. We do not think this amendment fits in with<br />
that. The great worry is that people will turn up at the<br />
polling station without any identification and then be<br />
turned away. That is the problem that we need to<br />
overcome. That is what I have to say on the matter on<br />
behalf <strong>of</strong> the Government tonight. I invite the noble<br />
Lord to withdraw his amendment.<br />
Lord Henley: My Lords, I do not think that that<br />
was satisfactory. I am minded to consider what to do<br />
about it in due course. At three minutes past 10, I will<br />
spare the noble Lord a Division on this matter, because<br />
I suspect that the response that we might get might not<br />
be representative <strong>of</strong> the feelings <strong>of</strong> the House.<br />
I think that there is a problem here. I have certainly<br />
been advised that there is one. I do not think that it<br />
would be a problem for people to bring some form<br />
<strong>of</strong> identification. Most people have some form <strong>of</strong><br />
identification <strong>of</strong> one sort or another on them most <strong>of</strong><br />
the time. We suspect the Government want ultimately<br />
to make that compulsory by bringing in ID cards. The<br />
noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, denies this and shakes<br />
his head. However, we know that ID cards are on the<br />
way. At least, the Government seem to think that they<br />
are on the way; I am not sure that they will ever<br />
happen.<br />
I will not go any further. The response was<br />
unsatisfactory. I will consider what we shall do with<br />
this matter. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw<br />
the amendment.<br />
Amendment 103 withdrawn.<br />
Clause 29 : Obligatory provision <strong>of</strong> identifying<br />
information<br />
Amendments 104 to 111<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
104: Clause 29, page 30, line 34, after “above” insert “or by<br />
virtue <strong>of</strong> subsection (4C) above”<br />
105: Clause 29, page 31, line 12, after “above” insert “or by<br />
virtue <strong>of</strong> subsection (1C) above”<br />
106: Clause 29, page 31, line 47, after “above” insert “or by<br />
virtue <strong>of</strong> subsection (2C) above”<br />
107: Clause 29, page 32, line 23, leave out from “keeper” to “,<br />
following” in line 24<br />
108: Clause 29, page 32, line 36, at end insert “or checking a<br />
person’s entitlement to be registered in such a register”
1169 Political Parties and Elections Bill [17 JUNE 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1170<br />
109: Clause 29, page 32, line 40, at end insert—<br />
“(4ZC) Provisions for the disclosure by a CORE keeper to a<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficer, for the purpose mentioned in sub-paragraph<br />
(4ZA), <strong>of</strong> information within paragraph (a) or (b) <strong>of</strong> that subparagraph.”<br />
110: Clause 29, page 32, line 40, at end insert—<br />
“( ) in sub-paragraph (4A), for “such authority or person”<br />
there is substituted “authority or person within<br />
paragraph (a) or (b) <strong>of</strong> sub-paragraph (4)”, and for<br />
“such records” there is substituted “any records within<br />
sub-paragraph (4)”;”<br />
111: Clause 29, page 32, line 43, leave out paragraph (c) and<br />
insert—<br />
“(c) for sub-paragraph (6) there is substituted—<br />
“(6) But provision made under sub-paragraph (4ZA), (4ZC)<br />
or (4A) may not permit information obtained by a<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficer or CORE keeper under that<br />
provision to be disclosed by the <strong>of</strong>ficer or CORE keeper<br />
except—<br />
(a) for the purpose mentioned in sub-paragraph (4ZA)<br />
or, as the case may be, sub-paragraph (4A), or<br />
(b) for the purposes <strong>of</strong> any criminal or civil<br />
proceedings,<br />
or, in the case <strong>of</strong> information obtained by a registration<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer, to a person to whom the <strong>of</strong>ficer may delegate<br />
functions.”;”<br />
Amendments 104 to 111 agreed.<br />
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Gibson <strong>of</strong> Market<br />
Rasen): My Lords, as Amendment 111 has been agreed<br />
to, Amendment 112 should not refer to page 32,<br />
line 44.<br />
Amendment 112<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
112: Clause 29, page 32, line 44, at end insert—<br />
“( ) after sub-paragraph (6) there is inserted—<br />
“(6A) In sub-paragraphs (4ZA) and (4ZB) “CORE keeper”<br />
has the same meaning as in Part 1 <strong>of</strong> the Electoral<br />
Administration Act 2006.”;”<br />
Amendment 112 agreed.<br />
Amendment 113<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
113: Clause 29, page 32, line 45, leave out paragraph (d) and<br />
insert—<br />
“(d) sub-paragraph (8) is omitted.”<br />
Amendment 113 agreed.<br />
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, as Amendment 113<br />
has been agreed to, Amendment 114 should not refer<br />
to page 32, line 46.<br />
Amendment 114<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
114: Clause 29, page 32, line 46, at end insert—<br />
“( ) In paragraph 13 <strong>of</strong> that Schedule, for sub-paragraph<br />
(1ZA) there is substituted—<br />
“(1ZA) Provisions making a person who discloses information<br />
in breach <strong>of</strong> paragraph 1(6) guilty <strong>of</strong> an <strong>of</strong>fence punishable—<br />
(a) on conviction on indictment, by imprisonment for a<br />
term not exceeding two years or a fine, or both;<br />
(b) on summary conviction in England and Wales and<br />
Scotland, by imprisonment for a term not exceeding<br />
12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory<br />
maximum, or both;<br />
(c) on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, by<br />
imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a<br />
fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both.””<br />
Amendment 114 agreed.<br />
Clause 30 : Provision supplementing section 29<br />
Amendment 115<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
115: Clause 30, page 33, leave out lines 29 and 30<br />
Amendment 115 agreed.<br />
Clause 31 : Schemes for provision <strong>of</strong> data to<br />
registration <strong>of</strong>ficers<br />
Amendments 116 to 119<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
116: Clause 31, page 33, line 42, leave out subsection (2) and<br />
insert—<br />
“(2) The purpose is assisting the registration <strong>of</strong>ficer to meet<br />
the registration objectives and, in particular, assisting the <strong>of</strong>ficer—<br />
(a) to ascertain to what extent those objectives are being<br />
met, and<br />
(b) to determine what steps should be taken for meeting<br />
them.”<br />
117: Clause 31, page 34, leave out lines 26 to 28 and insert—<br />
“( ) A person who discloses information in breach <strong>of</strong> subsection<br />
(7) is guilty <strong>of</strong> an <strong>of</strong>fence and liable—<br />
(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term<br />
not exceeding two years, or to a fine, or to both;<br />
(b) on summary conviction in England and Wales and<br />
Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding<br />
12 months, or to a fine not exceeding the statutory<br />
maximum, or to both;<br />
(c) on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to<br />
imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to a<br />
fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both.”<br />
118: Clause 31, page 34, leave out lines 35 to 37<br />
119: Clause 31, page 34, leave out lines 39 to 44<br />
Amendments 116 to 119 agreed.<br />
Clause 32 : Schemes under section 31: proposals,<br />
consultation and evaluation<br />
Amendment 120<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
120: Clause 32, page 35, line 36, leave out ““registration<br />
<strong>of</strong>ficer” and “scheme” mean the same” and insert ““scheme” has<br />
the same meaning”<br />
Amendment 120 agreed.
1171 Political Parties and Elections Bill [LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill 1172<br />
Amendment 121<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
121: After Clause 32, insert the following new Clause—<br />
“Meaning <strong>of</strong> expressions relating to registration<br />
In this Part (except in section 29)—<br />
“false”, in relation to a signature, means that the signature is<br />
not the usual signature <strong>of</strong>, or was written by a person other than,<br />
the person whose signature it purports to be;<br />
“register”, in relation to a registration <strong>of</strong>ficer, means a register<br />
maintained by that <strong>of</strong>ficer under section 9 <strong>of</strong> the 1983 Act;<br />
“registered person” means a person registered in such a register;<br />
“registration objectives” has the meaning given by section 27(6);<br />
“registration <strong>of</strong>ficer” has the same meaning as in the 1983 Act<br />
(see section 8 <strong>of</strong> that Act) except that it does not include the Chief<br />
Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland.”<br />
Amendment 121 agreed.<br />
Schedule6:Repeals<br />
Amendments 122 and 123<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
122: Schedule 6, page 76, line 42, at end insert—<br />
“In Schedule 2, paragraph 1(8).”<br />
123: Schedule 6, page 77, line 2, in the second column, at<br />
beginning insert—<br />
“In section 13—<br />
(a) in subsection (1), paragraphs (b) and (c);<br />
(b) in subsection (1A), paragraph (b) and the preceding “and”;<br />
(c) in subsection (2), the words “or (b)”;<br />
(d) in subsection (3), the words “, or to local government,” and<br />
the words after “in Scotland”;<br />
(e) in subsection (7), the words “, or to local government,”.”<br />
Amendments 122 and 123 agreed.<br />
Clause 35 : Transitional provision<br />
Amendment 124<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
124: Clause 35, page 36, line 7, leave out from second “in” to<br />
second “to” in line 8 and insert “any other Act”<br />
Amendment 124 agreed.<br />
In the Title<br />
Amendment 125<br />
Moved by Lord Bach<br />
125: In the Title, line 2, leave out “and expenditure and” and<br />
insert “, loans and related transactions and about political expenditure;<br />
and to make provision”<br />
Lord Bach: My Lords, as a result <strong>of</strong> amendments<br />
that have been made since its introduction, the Bill<br />
now deals in a more significant way than at the outset<br />
with loans and other transactions regulated by Part 4A<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums<br />
Act. Therefore, this is a technical amendment to ensure<br />
that the Bill reflects that in the Long Title.<br />
Before moving the amendment, I take this opportunity<br />
to thank noble Lords for their kindness in ensuring<br />
that we finished the Report stage tonight. I also thank<br />
the usual channels for their help. I beg to move.<br />
Amendment 125 agreed.<br />
House adjourned at 10.07 pm.
GC 271 Arrangement <strong>of</strong> Business [17 JUNE 2009] Companies Act 2006 Order 2009 GC 272<br />
Grand Committee<br />
Wednesday, 17 June 2009.<br />
Arrangement <strong>of</strong> Business<br />
Announcement<br />
3.45 pm<br />
The Deputy Chairman <strong>of</strong> Committees (Lord Geddes):<br />
Before the Minister moves that the first statutory<br />
instrument be considered, I remind noble Lords that<br />
in the case <strong>of</strong> each statutory instrument, the Motion<br />
before the Committee will be that it do consider the<br />
statutory instrument in question. I should make it<br />
clear that the Motion to approve each statutory instrument<br />
will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way. If<br />
there is a Division in the House, the Committee will<br />
adjourn for 10 minutes.<br />
Companies Act 2006 (Part 35)<br />
(Consequential Amendments, Transitional<br />
Provisions and Savings) Order 2009<br />
Considered in Grand Committee<br />
3.46 pm<br />
Moved By Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green<br />
That the Grand Committee do <strong>report</strong> to the<br />
House that it has considered the Companies Act<br />
2006 (Part 35) (Consequential Amendments,<br />
Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order 2009.<br />
Relevant document: 16th Report from the Joint<br />
Committee on Statutory Instruments.<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green): The draft statutory instruments<br />
which we are debating this afternoon are an important<br />
part <strong>of</strong> our implementation <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act<br />
2006. The Act reformed and clarified company law in<br />
many areas and brought company legislation together<br />
in one place. The Act makes it easier to set up businesses,<br />
gives investors greater information and confidence,<br />
and promotes shareholder engagement and effective<br />
dialogue between business and investors.<br />
The Act has been implemented in stages and these<br />
statutory instruments relate to provisions which are<br />
due to come into force in October 2009. This staged<br />
approach gave companies time to prepare, allowed us<br />
to coincide changes with parallel EU requirements<br />
and allowed Companies House to update its systems<br />
to support the new measures.<br />
The first debate concerns two statutory instruments<br />
relating to the Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies. The basic<br />
functions <strong>of</strong> the registrar are set out in Part 35 <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Companies Act 2006. This largely replaces the relevant<br />
provisions <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 1985, but it provides<br />
new powers and duties for the registrar which will help<br />
Companies House maintain the register as a useful<br />
and accurate source <strong>of</strong> information for users. The<br />
draft Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies and Applications for<br />
Striking <strong>of</strong>f Regulations supplement Parts 31 and 35<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Act by making more detailed provision in four<br />
areas: rectification <strong>of</strong> the register, annotation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
register, language requirements and an application by<br />
a company to have its name struck <strong>of</strong>f the register.<br />
The registrar does not currently have any statutory<br />
powers to remove information from the register, although<br />
the registrar will remove material if a court order<br />
authorises it. It was recognised on both sides <strong>of</strong> this<br />
House during the passage <strong>of</strong> the Bill that more needs<br />
to be done to address the filing <strong>of</strong> inaccurate, forged<br />
or fraudulent information on the register. The Companies<br />
Act 2006 introduces two new statutory procedures<br />
requiring the registrar to rectify the register—that is,<br />
to remove material from the register under court order<br />
or under a new administrative procedure on application<br />
to the registrar. The new administrative procedure has<br />
been introduced to permit certain information to be<br />
removed from the register without a court order. It is,<br />
we believe, an important step towards a more accurate<br />
register, although I should make it clear that it is not a<br />
panacea, and that matters requiring adjudication <strong>of</strong><br />
competing claims should be left to the courts.<br />
Under the draft regulations, it will be possible for<br />
an applicant to seek removal <strong>of</strong> company <strong>of</strong>ficers’<br />
details from the register. Companies House will follow<br />
the procedure set out in the regulations and, if no<br />
objection is received, the material will be removed. It<br />
will also be possible for companies to seek removal <strong>of</strong><br />
material relating to changes to a company’s registered<br />
<strong>of</strong>fice address. We believe that the way in which the<br />
provisions <strong>of</strong> the 2006 Act are framed in relation to a<br />
company’s registered <strong>of</strong>fice and the grounds for<br />
rectification effectively precludes the possibility <strong>of</strong> an<br />
applicant, other than a company, making an application<br />
in respect <strong>of</strong> a registered <strong>of</strong>fice address and prevents<br />
the administrative procedure being used at all in respect<br />
<strong>of</strong> a registered <strong>of</strong>fice address provided on incorporation<br />
<strong>of</strong> the company.<br />
An earlier draft <strong>of</strong> the regulations was withdrawn<br />
in the light <strong>of</strong> fresh evidence that some companies<br />
were purportedly appointing directors without the<br />
consent or knowledge <strong>of</strong> the persons concerned. The<br />
earlier draft addressed this issue where there was a<br />
change <strong>of</strong> directors in an established company, but the<br />
revised regulations address it also where directors are<br />
purportedly appointed when a company is first set up.<br />
We are very conscious that the provisions <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Act and the draft regulations do not provide a full<br />
answer to issues relating to the accuracy <strong>of</strong> the register,<br />
particularly where the company has provided fraudulent<br />
information. We will consider these matters further<br />
and if solutions can be identified, we are minded to<br />
consult on possible changes to the law in this area,<br />
including to the 2006 Act in due course.<br />
The second area where the draft regulations make<br />
more detailed provision is annotation <strong>of</strong> the register.<br />
They authorise the registrar to annotate the register<br />
where he believes that any material is misleading or<br />
confusing.<br />
The Act contains rules about the language in which<br />
documents can be drawn up and delivered to the<br />
registrar under company and insolvency legislation.
GC 273 Companies Act 2006 Order 2009 [LORDS] Companies Act 2006 Order 2009 GC 274<br />
[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN]<br />
The basic rule is that they must be drawn up and<br />
delivered in English. This does not apply to Welsh<br />
companies, which can deliver documents in Welsh so<br />
long as they are accompanied by an English translation.<br />
The draft regulations relax this exception further,<br />
prescribing documents relating to certain Welsh companies<br />
that can be delivered to the registrar in Welsh without<br />
a certified translation into English. The draft regulations<br />
also add further documents to the list <strong>of</strong> documents in<br />
the 2006 Act that can be delivered to the registrar in a<br />
language other than English, provided that they are<br />
accompanied by a certified translation into English.<br />
They also provide the characters and symbols that are<br />
permitted in names and addresses.<br />
Finally, the draft Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies Regulations<br />
require an application by a company to have its name<br />
struck <strong>of</strong>f the register to contain a declaration that<br />
there are no circumstances as set out in Sections 1004<br />
and 1005 that prevent the application being made.<br />
It is important to Companies House and very<br />
helpful to business to have a coherent and consistent<br />
registration system for all types <strong>of</strong> business which are<br />
required to send material to Companies House. It<br />
has therefore always been our intention to apply provisions<br />
<strong>of</strong> Part 35, relating to the Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies, to<br />
forms <strong>of</strong> business association other than companies.<br />
Some provisions already apply generally to companies<br />
and other bodies, but others, such as certain provisions<br />
relating to electronic delivery, must be applied to other<br />
bodies to provide a coherent system. It would be<br />
possible to do this by making consequential amendments<br />
to each individual area <strong>of</strong> law, but we believe that the<br />
legislation will be clearer and simpler if we amend<br />
Part 35 to achieve this. The draft Companies Act 2006<br />
(Part 35) (Consequential Amendments, Transitional<br />
Provisions and Savings) Order will give effect to this.<br />
I should make it clear that the amendments made<br />
by the draft order are relatively modest in their<br />
impact, being concerned essentially with procedural<br />
and administrative matters. The draft order does not<br />
seek to extend all the provisions <strong>of</strong> Part 35 and does<br />
not seek, for example, to extend the provisions about<br />
correcting or removing material on the register.<br />
These instruments will make an important contribution<br />
to our efforts to make the register a useful and accurate<br />
source <strong>of</strong> information for users. I commend them to<br />
the Committee. I beg to move.<br />
Lord De Mauley: I thank the Minister for introducing<br />
the order and the regulations. I welcome him to his<br />
new department. The SIs are not particularly controversial,<br />
so I shall not detain your Lordships long, but perhaps<br />
I may ask a couple <strong>of</strong> quick and rather more general<br />
questions <strong>of</strong> the Minister.<br />
The order is an amendment to Part 5 <strong>of</strong> the Companies<br />
Act 2006. If it has taken the ever-growing Department<br />
for Business, with all the resources at its disposal, until<br />
2009 to work its way through the complexity and<br />
conclude that there is a need for it, one has to ask what<br />
hope there is for the small businessman trying to go<br />
through the entire pile <strong>of</strong> regulation and work out<br />
whether and how each item <strong>of</strong> it affects him.<br />
The Explanatory Memorandum to the order says,<br />
under “Matters <strong>of</strong> special interest to the Joint Committee<br />
on Statutory Instruments”, that,<br />
“the Order amends Part 35 itself”—<br />
that is, part 35 <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act—<br />
“instead <strong>of</strong> making amendments to various pieces <strong>of</strong> legislation<br />
which contain functions <strong>of</strong> the registrar in relation to bodies<br />
other than companies”.<br />
Is it easier for the layman if it is done that way rather<br />
than by amending the various pieces <strong>of</strong> legislation? If<br />
so, it would be helpful to understand why in a little<br />
more detail. I do not ask that with any formed opinion;<br />
I would just like to know, because it is important that<br />
steps should be taken to ensure that legislation and<br />
regulation are accessible and understandable to those<br />
being regulated.<br />
With that in mind, my final question is rather more<br />
general. What steps are being taken to codify the huge<br />
volume <strong>of</strong> extant legislation and regulation so that a<br />
layman stands a chance?<br />
Lord Razzall: Clearly, these regulations are appropriate<br />
and relatively straightforward, although I take the<br />
point that the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, makes<br />
about the complexity <strong>of</strong> statutory instruments under<br />
this legislation. I have two points to make. First, I very<br />
much welcome the confirmation that the Minister<br />
gave that this area will be kept continually under<br />
review. I have some scepticism about whether the<br />
appetite <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>, under any party, for another<br />
Companies Act will be met in the foreseeable future,<br />
after living through the last one. As the Minister said,<br />
anecdotally there is beginning to be a bit <strong>of</strong> an increase<br />
in fraudulent formation <strong>of</strong> companies, with directors’<br />
names being used who were never directors and never<br />
actually signed the consent form—somebody else forged<br />
their signature. Recognising that that is a problem, I<br />
welcome the undertaking that the Minister has given<br />
that this will be kept under review.<br />
My second point is on a slightly more difficult<br />
question. I am always amused by the <strong>report</strong> that we,<br />
rightly, receive on consultation outcomes, when the<br />
phrase is used,<br />
“the proposed approach was generally supported”.<br />
I would always like to know what objections people<br />
had who did not generally support the proposed<br />
regulations. Clearly, we will not have a statement in<br />
this document, because it has already been written,<br />
but it would be helpful if the Minister could give some<br />
indication about the objections, because they are not<br />
stated and they are not obvious to me. If anyone is<br />
sitting behind him who can summarise it for him, I<br />
would be grateful.<br />
Lord Lyell: I wonder whether I might impudently<br />
ask the Minister one or two gentle queries on the<br />
order before us today. First, I declare a very minor<br />
interest. I look around the Committee today to find<br />
the Minister, my noble friend and perhaps one or two<br />
other noble Lords who have ground through the years<br />
to become chartered accountants. Indeed, I am reminded<br />
<strong>of</strong> the musical, “Evita”, when the young lady says,<br />
“Somebody called me something unmentionable” and<br />
an old man says, “Yes, madam, they still call me an
GC 275 Companies Act 2006 Order 2009 [17 JUNE 2009] Overseas Companies Regulations 2009 GC 276<br />
admiral, although I left the sea many years ago”. With<br />
regard to the accountancy pr<strong>of</strong>ession, that is very<br />
much up my street.<br />
The Minister referred at least twice to language. I<br />
beg him not to trouble himself today, but I hope that<br />
he can answer this impudent question in writing. The<br />
Minister referred twice to the language requirements,<br />
which are mentioned right at the bottom, in paragraph 4,<br />
Section 1059A(4), Sections 1102 to 1105 and 1107(18).<br />
I think that he mentioned Welsh. I had the opportunity<br />
to serve in Northern Ireland. I do not think that any<br />
cantankerous people would wish to have financial<br />
documents in Irish—or I doubt it. Do the language<br />
requirements cover other languages? I think particularly<br />
<strong>of</strong> oriental languages such as Japanese or Chinese, let<br />
alone Vietnamese. I understand that the Minister served<br />
in Vietnam. I was curious about that; perhaps he<br />
could reassure me that there should be no problem<br />
here. He referred to Welsh, which should be the only one.<br />
On page 4, paragraph 13 refers to Section 1109(1) and,<br />
“voluntary transliteration <strong>of</strong> name or address into Roman characters”.<br />
Is there a problem there? I am curious as to quite what<br />
that refers to. I am not necessarily aware <strong>of</strong> that<br />
section in the Companies Act. Could the Minister<br />
reassure me that there is no problem there? If he<br />
cannot today, perhaps he could write to me as I would<br />
not wish at any time to delay the Committee.<br />
4pm<br />
Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green: The starting point<br />
is that Part 35 contains a mixture <strong>of</strong> provisions that<br />
apply generally and provisions that have either more<br />
limited application or that contain references to companies<br />
but which are essentially intended to apply generally. I<br />
hope that I will reassure the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley,<br />
that it takes relatively little to amend some <strong>of</strong> the<br />
provisions so as to generalise them or make it clear<br />
that they apply generally. That is more efficient than<br />
amending other legislation simply by writing in the<br />
provisions we want to apply with very little adaptation.<br />
Our approach leaves Part 35 as the foundation <strong>of</strong><br />
the law about the register’s function and material sent<br />
to the register. Other legislation will build on that<br />
foundation by applying the less straightforward provisions,<br />
including those which require greater adaptation to fit<br />
particular cases. An example <strong>of</strong> that is provided by<br />
limited liability partnerships. We intend to apply most<br />
<strong>of</strong> Part 35 to limited liability partnerships. The amendment<br />
made by the draft order will provide the foundation<br />
for that.<br />
I am not sure that that actually deals with the noble<br />
Lord’s point. Unless I misunderstood it, the point was<br />
whether it would make it easier for lay people to deal<br />
with this issue. I am looking at my <strong>of</strong>ficials to see<br />
whether they will say yea or nay. In the mean time, I<br />
will deal with a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Razzall about the proposed approach being generally<br />
supported. He asked what objections anybody had.<br />
We received relatively few written responses, but both<br />
the department and Companies House discussed them<br />
in detail with our leading stakeholders. We are not<br />
aware <strong>of</strong> any areas where our approach is not supported,<br />
other than those relating to rectification, which we<br />
have already said we will keep under review. So we<br />
have nothing up our sleeves on that one.<br />
The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, asked whether<br />
we would codify for clarity. We will not be codifying<br />
secondary legislation made under the Act, but we will<br />
publish guidance on the websites for the Department<br />
for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Companies<br />
House. We will also work closely with our leading<br />
stakeholders and leading publishers.<br />
As regards the point the noble Lord, Lord Lyell,<br />
raised—we will confirm this in writing just to ensure I<br />
get it absolutely right—English is the preferred language<br />
but there are allowances for other languages provided<br />
that they are accompanied by a translation. The reference<br />
to Roman characters is shorthand for the characters<br />
set out in the schedule. Only these may be used in<br />
names and addresses in documents delivered to the<br />
registrar. Not a lot <strong>of</strong> people know that.<br />
I hope that that has dealt with all the questions. As<br />
regards the point <strong>of</strong> the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley,<br />
we believe that this will be a reasonable procedure for<br />
lay people. Pro<strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong> that particular pudding will be in<br />
the eating.<br />
Motion agreed.<br />
Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies and Applications<br />
for Striking Off Regulations 2009<br />
Considered in Grand Committee<br />
4.05 pm<br />
Moved By Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green<br />
That the Grand Committee do <strong>report</strong> to the<br />
House that it has considered the Registrar <strong>of</strong><br />
Companies and Applications for Striking Off<br />
Regulations 2009.<br />
Relevant document: 16th Report from the Joint<br />
Committee on Statutory Instruments.<br />
Motion agreed.<br />
Overseas Companies Regulations 2009<br />
Considered in Grand Committee<br />
4.06 pm<br />
Moved By Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green<br />
That the Grand Committee do <strong>report</strong> to the<br />
House that it has considered the Overseas Companies<br />
Regulations 2009.<br />
Relevant document: 16th Report from the Joint<br />
Committee on Statutory Instruments.<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green): We are today debating the<br />
draft Overseas Companies Regulations. They set out a<br />
simplified regime for registration <strong>of</strong> information at<br />
Companies House <strong>of</strong> companies incorporated overseas<br />
that operate their business in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong><br />
through an establishment. We are talking not about<br />
UK incorporated subsidiaries <strong>of</strong> overseas companies,<br />
rather about overseas companies that are conducting<br />
their business through a local representative or have a<br />
small, permanently active base in the UK, such as a
GC 277 Overseas Companies Regulations 2009 [LORDS] Overseas Companies Regulations 2009 GC 278<br />
[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN]<br />
representative <strong>of</strong>fice, ware<strong>house</strong> or shop. The regime<br />
concerns only obligations to file specified information<br />
in the UK at Companies House. The internal governance<br />
<strong>of</strong> companies incorporated outside the UK is for the<br />
law <strong>of</strong> the country <strong>of</strong> their incorporation.<br />
In order to best protect UK creditors and the needs<br />
<strong>of</strong> law enforcement agencies, a regime has been prepared<br />
that continues to meet the EU requirements <strong>of</strong> the<br />
11th directive for branches <strong>of</strong> overseas companies and<br />
also includes companies operating a place <strong>of</strong> business<br />
in the UK. The draft regulations include a revised<br />
accounting regime for overseas companies that is<br />
transparent, straightforward and up to date. Overseas<br />
companies will primarily file accounts prepared under<br />
the parent law <strong>of</strong> the country where the company is<br />
incorporated. However, where that is not applicable,<br />
accounts are to be prepared and disclosed in a manner<br />
compatible with the requirements for UK companies<br />
as set out in the Companies Act 2006. The regulations<br />
do not cover the law on the execution <strong>of</strong> contracts or<br />
the requirement to register the use <strong>of</strong> their assets in the<br />
UK to secure loans. These will be covered by a separate<br />
statutory instrument that will be made by negative<br />
resolution after these regulations have been made.<br />
In line with the approach in the Companies Act<br />
2006, the draft regulations apply to the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong><br />
rather than, as at present, to Great Britain only. This<br />
considerably simplifies the position for overseas companies<br />
that conduct business in both Northern Ireland and<br />
the rest <strong>of</strong> Great Britain by allowing them to register<br />
their presence in the UK once and therefore avoid the<br />
burden <strong>of</strong> duplicate filing. These draft regulations<br />
meet the concerns raised during the consultation process.<br />
They provide a single regulatory regime for the filing<br />
obligations <strong>of</strong> overseas companies operating in the<br />
UK. I commend this instrument to the Committee.<br />
Lord De Mauley: I cannot see anything in the<br />
regulations to object to per se. Indeed, if my reading is<br />
correct, according to the Explanatory Memorandum,<br />
the majority <strong>of</strong> respondents to the consultation exercise<br />
agreed with what is being done here, although in line<br />
with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord<br />
Razzall, in the previous debate, it would be interesting<br />
to know how big the minority was and what its major<br />
concerns were.<br />
My only question is on the regulatory impact<br />
assessment. I explained before in this Committee my<br />
scepticism <strong>of</strong> the figures put on costs and, in particular,<br />
the claimed benefits <strong>of</strong> certain regulations in RIAs. In<br />
the case <strong>of</strong> these regulations, the net benefit claimed is<br />
no less than £43,360,000. I have followed the calculations,<br />
which are based on a sweeping assumption that half<br />
the 7,847 overseas companies will be in a position to<br />
provide parent company accounts and the other half<br />
will not. A further assumption is made about the<br />
average costs for each <strong>of</strong> those categories <strong>of</strong> company.<br />
The whole <strong>of</strong> the annual saving so calculated is then, I<br />
think, subjected to a net present value calculation,<br />
which itself makes assumptions—for example, about<br />
the cost <strong>of</strong> capital—which must be, to put it mildly,<br />
fairly subjective in the current market. I do not disagree<br />
that it is helpful to have a regulatory impact assessment,<br />
but I wonder what value there is in a claim <strong>of</strong> benefit<br />
to corporate entities based on such huge assumptions.<br />
I wonder whether the Government have, in a wider<br />
context, given thought to improving the techniques<br />
followed for arriving at a cost-benefit analysis, or at<br />
least to giving an indication <strong>of</strong> the subjectivity.<br />
Lord Razzall: My Lords, I join the noble Lord,<br />
Lord De Mauley, in agreeing that the regulations are<br />
appropriate. Clearly, it makes enormous sense to simplify<br />
the procedure for registration <strong>of</strong> an overseas company,<br />
so that the company no longer has to take legal and<br />
accounting advice about the form <strong>of</strong> registration it<br />
requires. That lifts the regulatory and cost burden on<br />
overseas companies establishing places <strong>of</strong> business in<br />
the UK, which is welcome.<br />
I have only one technical question, on which I<br />
would welcome the Minister’s view. Clearly, what became<br />
known as Section 700 accounts were criticised by the<br />
company law review committee, and it is appropriate<br />
to move away from that. My question concerns the<br />
simplification <strong>of</strong> accounts procedures for non-European<br />
Union countries. They are straightforward in the EU<br />
because companies formed there comply with the<br />
accounting rules that have emerged by a series <strong>of</strong><br />
directives, so it is clear what they will say. In the<br />
Government’s view, will the liberalisation—that may<br />
be the wrong noun, so let us say alteration—<strong>of</strong> the<br />
rules and the replacement <strong>of</strong> the Section 700 accounts<br />
make it marginally harder for creditors and people<br />
dealing with those companies to find out exactly what<br />
is happening or will it improve their position?<br />
Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green: My Lords, the first<br />
question was a minority view, so to speak, as I understood<br />
the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley. Responses to each<br />
<strong>of</strong> the consultations on a simplified single regime for<br />
overseas companies consistently supported the approach.<br />
Almost all respondents supported the regime as set<br />
out in the draft regulations set out in December 2007,<br />
which was based on the concept <strong>of</strong> an overseas company<br />
with a UK establishment. Key stakeholders have continued<br />
to be involved in the finalisation <strong>of</strong> the draft regulations<br />
and have continued to support the concept <strong>of</strong> a single<br />
regime. It seems to be pretty well supported.<br />
Impact assessment can be justified by the savings.<br />
The net saving <strong>of</strong> £4.9 million is measured in terms<br />
<strong>of</strong> new overseas companies registering a UK<br />
establishment under the new regime. It is rather<br />
difficult to quantify one <strong>of</strong> the main benefits <strong>of</strong> the<br />
regime, which is that these companies no longer have<br />
to decide whether their establishment in the UK is a<br />
place <strong>of</strong> business or a branch. This element <strong>of</strong> choice<br />
and the time and effort required will vary from<br />
company to company.<br />
The PwC assessment <strong>of</strong> costs to business <strong>of</strong> UK<br />
regulation did not include an assessment <strong>of</strong> this choice.<br />
We believe that the simplification <strong>of</strong> the regime is a<br />
major customer benefit, and it is unfortunate that this<br />
saving cannot be counted. Instead, we have been able<br />
to quantify the benefit to companies <strong>of</strong> following the<br />
new simplified accounting regime and avoiding the<br />
existing Section 700 accounts requirements. PwC assessed<br />
the cost <strong>of</strong> preparation <strong>of</strong> such accounts to be just<br />
under £885 per company.
GC 279 Overseas Companies Regulations 2009 [17 JUNE 2009] Limited Liability Partnerships Regs 2009 GC 280<br />
Many overseas companies will now be in a position<br />
to avoid this cost by filing accounts already prepared<br />
under the parent law <strong>of</strong> their country <strong>of</strong> incorporation.<br />
We have taken an indicative view that half the overseas<br />
companies that could benefit from this change will do<br />
so. It is difficult to be more accurate, given the range <strong>of</strong><br />
countries involved, and the saving could be higher.<br />
Those companies unable to rely on parent law and still<br />
required to prepare accounts will find the new<br />
arrangements more straightforward, and we have<br />
estimated an average reduced cost <strong>of</strong> half that for<br />
Section 700 accounts assessed by PwC. We based the<br />
saving on the number <strong>of</strong> active overseas companies<br />
registered at Companies House that are non-EU<br />
companies with a UK branch or overseas companies<br />
with a place <strong>of</strong> business. EU companies with a UK<br />
branch are not subject to Section 700 accounts, so we<br />
have not counted them in the saving calculation.<br />
4.15 pm<br />
For some existing overseas companies, there will be<br />
negligible increased cost. The regulations include<br />
transitional provisions that allow existing companies<br />
sufficient time to provide a set <strong>of</strong> accounts where they<br />
have not already been provided. Other information to<br />
be provided as part <strong>of</strong> the transition is negligible. We<br />
have allowed companies six months from 1 October<br />
2009 to comply with a simple return to the registrar.<br />
Respondents to the December 2007 consultation did<br />
not challenge the figures used, nor did they <strong>of</strong>fer any<br />
alternative approach. On the contrary, the majority<br />
supported the approach taken.<br />
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Razzall,<br />
accounting by non-EU companies has been modernised,<br />
not liberalised. It will be easier for creditors because<br />
the resulting accounts will follow more modern accounting<br />
standards—so I am assured. I think that we have dealt<br />
with all the questions raised.<br />
Motion agreed.<br />
Limited Liability Partnerships<br />
(Application <strong>of</strong> Companies Act 2006)<br />
Regulations 2009<br />
Considered in Grand Committee<br />
4.16 pm<br />
Moved By Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green<br />
That the Grand Committee do <strong>report</strong> to the<br />
House that it has considered the Limited Liability<br />
Partnerships (Application <strong>of</strong> Companies Act 2006)<br />
Regulations 2009.<br />
Relevant document: 16th Report from the Joint<br />
Committee on Statutory Instruments.<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green): We are debating today the<br />
Limited Liability Partnerships (Application <strong>of</strong> Companies<br />
Act 2006) Regulations 2009. Limited liability partnerships<br />
were introduced by the Limited Liability Partnerships<br />
Act 2000. The main early users <strong>of</strong> the limited liability<br />
partnership form were major accountancy and law<br />
firms, and now all sizes and types <strong>of</strong> businesses are<br />
using it.<br />
The LLP Act is a relatively short Act that sets out<br />
the basic structure <strong>of</strong> the LLP and provides a power to<br />
fill it out as appropriate by applying to LLPs selected<br />
provisions <strong>of</strong> company law. The LLP Regulations<br />
2001 applied major parts <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 1985,<br />
with appropriate modifications, to LLPs along with<br />
bits <strong>of</strong> financial services and insolvency law.<br />
As the Companies Act 1985 has been comprehensively<br />
replaced by the Companies Act 2006, we need to<br />
update the regulations that apply company law provisions<br />
to LLPs. Last year, your Lordships debated the Limited<br />
Liability Partnerships (Accounts and Audit) Regulations,<br />
which applied to LLPs rules on accounts and audit<br />
corresponding to those under the Companies Act<br />
2006. These take effect for financial years beginning<br />
on or after 1 October 2008. The current regulations<br />
complete that work by applying to LLPs the other<br />
relevant provisions <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006, with<br />
modifications as necessary. They apply to the whole <strong>of</strong><br />
the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>.<br />
If any noble Lord is familiar with the 2001 LLP<br />
regulations, he or she will have noticed that the current<br />
regulations are much longer. This is because the earlier<br />
regulations simply listed the section numbers <strong>of</strong> provisions<br />
in the Companies Acts that were to be applied with a<br />
list <strong>of</strong> textual modifications. The current regulations<br />
take the approach <strong>of</strong> writing out the provisions so that<br />
the regulations can be read as a stand-alone document<br />
without looking at the Companies Act. This approach<br />
received strong support when we consulted, particularly<br />
from practitioners in the field.<br />
Much <strong>of</strong> the update has simply meant applying to<br />
LLPs the provisions <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006 that<br />
correspond to the provisions <strong>of</strong> the 1985 Act that were<br />
applied to LLPs. As set out in the Explanatory<br />
Memorandum, some <strong>of</strong> the new provisions <strong>of</strong> the<br />
2006 Act are applied to LLPs, but others are not.<br />
Broadly, these decisions maintain the approach <strong>of</strong><br />
applying to LLPs the rules that regulate a company’s<br />
dealings with third parties and, in particular, the filing<br />
and transparency requirements, but not rules on the<br />
internal workings <strong>of</strong> companies.<br />
There is also a small number <strong>of</strong> changes that are<br />
not directly related to the Companies Act 2006. They<br />
include providing a new right for a member <strong>of</strong> an LLP,<br />
if he is the sole remaining member, to apply to have<br />
the LLP dissolved. In summary, these regulations will<br />
keep the law on LLPs up to date and consistent with<br />
current company law. I beg to move.<br />
Lord De Mauley: I am grateful to the Minister. The<br />
Explanatory Memorandum says that this instrument<br />
and the application <strong>of</strong> the accounts and audit provisions<br />
<strong>of</strong> the 2006 Act to LLPs will be,<br />
“reviewed, from 2011, as part <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006 evaluation”.<br />
I notice that the other Explanatory Memorandums for<br />
the orders that we are discussing today all say something<br />
similar. What does “from 2011” mean? It sounds like,<br />
“not before 2011”, which is rather worrying. Does it<br />
mean, on the other hand, “in 2011”? If not, when will<br />
we know the outcome <strong>of</strong> the review?
GC 281 Limited Liability Partnerships Regs 2009 [LORDS]<br />
Companies Act 2006 Regs 2009 GC 282<br />
[LORD DE MAULEY]<br />
Other noble Lords may have received a communication<br />
regarding these regulations from the Institute <strong>of</strong> Chartered<br />
Accountants in England and Wales, an institute <strong>of</strong><br />
which, I should disclose, I am a member. While most<br />
<strong>of</strong> its concerns with earlier drafts appear to have been<br />
allayed, it raised the following points. Perhaps the<br />
Minister could address them.<br />
The first concerns Regulation 18, which would<br />
apply Sections 162 to 165 <strong>of</strong> the 2006 Act, which<br />
concern the registry <strong>of</strong> directors’ names to LLPs with<br />
modifications. That will require an LLP to keep available<br />
for inspection a register <strong>of</strong> members containing certain<br />
particulars, including a service address for each individual<br />
member and whether a member is a designated member.<br />
In practice, the institute notes that most LLPs currently<br />
maintain a list <strong>of</strong> all members at their principal place<br />
<strong>of</strong> business and do not object to the requirement being<br />
imposed. However, particularly given that failure to<br />
comply will be an <strong>of</strong>fence, it feels—and I can see the<br />
point—that it is important that the Minister’s department<br />
provides LLPs with adequate information about that<br />
new requirement to ensure compliance as from 1 October.<br />
The institute also notes that the department has<br />
postponed the decision on whether to apply the overseas<br />
company disclosure regime to LLPs. It understands<br />
that it would be undesirable to hold up the application<br />
<strong>of</strong> the remainder <strong>of</strong> the Act to LLPs while the difficult<br />
question <strong>of</strong> overseas LLPs is considered, but it would<br />
like to know when the issue will be tackled, as there is<br />
now a discrepancy between the treatment <strong>of</strong> overseas<br />
companies, as against overseas LLPs.<br />
Lastly, as a drafting point, the institute draws attention<br />
to the fact that in Regulation 51 applying Section<br />
1007(1) and 1007(5)(a), reference is made to an application<br />
being made by an LLP. It says that that should refer<br />
to an application being made on behalf <strong>of</strong> an LLP.<br />
I should be interested to hear whether the Minister<br />
can respond to those points.<br />
Lord Razzall: I make one point in support <strong>of</strong> the<br />
regulations, which is to congratulate whoever in the<br />
Government or the department was responsible for<br />
producing them in this format. Before the Minister’s<br />
time, when we ground our way through the Companies<br />
Bill in the august Chamber, we argued from these<br />
Benches that it was important that the Company Law<br />
Reform Bill became a consolidating Act, for the reasons<br />
that the Minister gave—that it was important that<br />
people could read legislation in a digestible form,<br />
rather than having to leap from one section and one<br />
Act to the other, the only benefit <strong>of</strong> which being to<br />
increase the pr<strong>of</strong>its <strong>of</strong> Butterworths. I welcome this<br />
approach and hope that the Government will continue<br />
to follow it when we have further legislation in this area.<br />
Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green: I thank the noble<br />
Lord, Lord Razzall, for that comment. The Acts have<br />
been implemented in stages, which will need to be<br />
reflected in our evaluation. We will begin to evaluate<br />
some provisions commenced in 2007 next year, but we<br />
will wait until 2011 to evaluate most provisions<br />
commenced in October 2009.<br />
The regulations for LLPs come into effect on 1 October<br />
2009, in line with the implementation date for the<br />
remaining provisions <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006 for<br />
companies. We will take steps to ensure that LLPs<br />
know about these changes, particularly the new register<br />
<strong>of</strong> members, given the importance <strong>of</strong> the situation in<br />
which they find themselves. Companies House will<br />
send a mailshot to all LLPs telling them about the<br />
changes. It will highlight the new requirement to keep<br />
a register <strong>of</strong> members available for inspection, and it<br />
will mention that a failure to do so will be an <strong>of</strong>fence.<br />
Guidance and specimen forms will be available on the<br />
Companies House website from 1 July. We will look at<br />
the drafting point raised by the ICAEW to see whether<br />
it needs amendment. No consensus has emerged about<br />
how or whether to change the way in which we regulate<br />
overseas LLPs. The regulations before us therefore<br />
continue the approach in the existing regulations.<br />
I believe that I have dealt with all the questions.<br />
I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to<br />
this debate. The regulations represent the last step<br />
towards the application <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006 to<br />
limited liability partnerships. They ensure that the<br />
regulations under which LLPs form and operate are in<br />
step with modern company law. In summary, by applying<br />
the remaining provisions <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006<br />
to LLPs, as set out in the regulations, where necessary<br />
and appropriate, we make essential changes to align<br />
the requirements for LLPs with those for companies.<br />
This will ensure that LLPs enjoy some <strong>of</strong> the same<br />
benefits and savings as companies, and remain an<br />
attractive and distinctive corporate vehicle for business,<br />
with different characteristics from companies and other<br />
types <strong>of</strong> partnerships. I commend these regulations to<br />
the Committee.<br />
Motion agreed.<br />
Companies Act 2006 (Accounts, Reports<br />
and Audit) Regulations 2009<br />
Considered in Grand Committee<br />
4.27 pm<br />
Moved By Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green<br />
That the Grand Committee do <strong>report</strong> to the<br />
House that it has considered the Companies Act<br />
2006 (Accounts, Reports and Audit) Regulations<br />
2009.<br />
Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint<br />
Committee on Statutory Instruments.<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord<br />
Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green): The main purpose <strong>of</strong> this<br />
instrument is to complete the implementation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
company <strong>report</strong>ing directive, directive 2006/46, in relation<br />
to corporate governance statements that publicly traded<br />
companies publish separately from the directors’ <strong>report</strong>.<br />
The regulations before the Committee today amend<br />
the Companies Act 2006 to make provision for the<br />
filing <strong>of</strong> separate corporate governance statements at<br />
Companies House. They also implement the directive’s<br />
requirement for an auditor’s <strong>report</strong> on any separate<br />
corporate governance statement. Rules made last year<br />
by the Financial Services Authority implemented the<br />
requirement for a corporate governance statement and<br />
set out what it should contain. As permitted under the
GC 283 Companies Act 2006 Regs 2009 [17 JUNE 2009] Companies Act 2006 Regs 2009 GC 284<br />
directive, the FSA rules give companies the option to<br />
prepare a separate corporate governance statement<br />
rather than including it in a specific section <strong>of</strong> the<br />
directors’ <strong>report</strong>. The auditor is required by these<br />
regulations to check that information in a separate<br />
corporate governance statement on internal control<br />
and risk management systems in relation to the financial<br />
<strong>report</strong>ing process and share capital is consistent with<br />
the audited financial statements. That is the same<br />
check that would be required to be carried out by the<br />
auditor if the information formed part <strong>of</strong> the directors’<br />
<strong>report</strong>.<br />
We do not believe that these regulations should add<br />
to the costs <strong>of</strong> audit because the test for consistency<br />
should not be onerous, and in a number <strong>of</strong> companies,<br />
the audited financial statements may not contain<br />
information on internal control and risk management<br />
systems.<br />
The regulations also contain some technical accounting<br />
amendments. If the noble Lord wishes, I can give a<br />
brief description <strong>of</strong> each <strong>of</strong> the accounting amendments<br />
that remain in Part 3 <strong>of</strong> the regulations.<br />
As noble Lords will be aware, a version <strong>of</strong> this<br />
instrument was laid before <strong>Parliament</strong> earlier this year<br />
and then withdrawn. That earlier version contained<br />
an amendment to Section 413 <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act<br />
2006 concerning disclosure <strong>of</strong> loans to directors <strong>of</strong><br />
banking companies. We have decided to re-lay the<br />
draft regulations without that amendment. We want<br />
to consider further what form the amendment should<br />
take and to conduct a public consultation. I commend<br />
these regulations to the Committee. I beg to move.<br />
4.30 pm<br />
Lord De Mauley: I thank the Minister once again<br />
for introducing these regulations. I do not think that<br />
they are particularly controversial so I will not detain<br />
your Lordships long. As the name includes the word<br />
“audit” I suppose I should disclose once again my<br />
membership <strong>of</strong> the Institute <strong>of</strong> Chartered Accountants<br />
in England and Wales although I have not been a<br />
practitioner since at least the early 1980s.<br />
When these regulations were being debated on Monday<br />
in another place, I notice that the Liberal Democrat<br />
spokesman asked the Minister several technical questions,<br />
which he did not fully answer. Perhaps I can leave it to<br />
the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, to pursue these matters<br />
if he wishes to do so. On these Benches, we are strong<br />
supporters <strong>of</strong> transparency. Transparency is particular<br />
important with company accounts. Although relatively<br />
modest in their ambitions, we are supportive <strong>of</strong> the<br />
impetus behind these regulations. When they were<br />
debated in another place my honourable friend Oliver<br />
Heald asked the Minister why these provisions had<br />
taken so long to promulgate. He asked if it was because<br />
the Financial Services Authority had taken a very long<br />
time to create the rules. The Minister there undertook<br />
to make inquiries <strong>of</strong> the FSA, and it would be helpful<br />
to know if there is an answer yet.<br />
Lord Razzall: I do not propose to repeat the questions<br />
that my colleague in another place asked, but I will say<br />
what they were. The two questions he asked were: first,<br />
whether the Minister will state the accounting impact<br />
<strong>of</strong> the fairly technical changes to realise losses; and,<br />
secondly he asked about the transfer and value <strong>of</strong><br />
pensions. I do not expect the Minister to answer<br />
because I understand that the Minister in another<br />
place gave an undertaking to write to my colleague<br />
with an answer to that, which no doubt we will see in<br />
due course. I do not propose to delay the Committee<br />
any further; I am happy to support this regulation.<br />
Lord Lyell: Could I delay the Minister for 10 seconds?<br />
I had a look through the corporate governance statements.<br />
My noble friend told us when he last carried out work<br />
in the audit pr<strong>of</strong>ession; I go back at least 15 to 20 years<br />
before that.<br />
Will the Minister clarify something for me, though<br />
not necessarily today? On page 3 under “Part 15<br />
definition <strong>of</strong> ‘corporate governance statement’”, the<br />
noble Lord will find paragraph 6 and “Auditor’s <strong>report</strong><br />
on separate corporate governance statement”. That is<br />
not necessarily his duties, but in Regulation 6 he will<br />
find Section 497 <strong>of</strong> the Companies Act 2006, which, I<br />
am afraid, is not part <strong>of</strong> my bedtime reading. I am<br />
fascinated by the auditor’s <strong>report</strong> on the auditable part<br />
<strong>of</strong> directors’remuneration, but I am somewhat suspicious.<br />
I wonder what aspects <strong>of</strong> the <strong>report</strong> and the directors’<br />
remuneration would not be auditable, to put it politely.<br />
Perhaps the noble Lord could reassure me—not today,<br />
but in writing, because I do not want to delay the<br />
Committee any further. I am very grateful for his<br />
words <strong>of</strong> reassurance throughout.<br />
Lord Young <strong>of</strong> Norwood Green: I say to the noble<br />
Lord, Lord De Mauley, that with regard to the<br />
implementation by the FSA <strong>of</strong> rules <strong>of</strong> directive 2006/46,<br />
requirements on corporate governance statement, the<br />
Government consulted on the implementation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
directive in March 2007. One <strong>of</strong> the questions asked<br />
was whether the requirement for a corporate governance<br />
statement should be implemented by rules made by<br />
the FSA or should it be prescribed as part <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Companies Act.<br />
The consultation period closed on 1 June 2007.<br />
Consultees preferred a continuation <strong>of</strong> the existing<br />
regime for corporate governance statements. The<br />
Government therefore decided with the agreement <strong>of</strong><br />
the FSA that the requirement for a corporate governance<br />
statement should be implemented by FSA rules. The<br />
FSA needed to consult on its rules, which encompass<br />
not only the corporate governance statement but also<br />
requirements for audit committees in the Audit Directive<br />
2006/43/EC. The FSA’s consultation document was<br />
published in December 2007; the consultation period<br />
closed on 20 March 2008. Due to that need to consult<br />
and the length <strong>of</strong> the consultation period, the FSA<br />
was not able to make the rules by the common<br />
commencement date <strong>of</strong> 6 April 2008. They were made,<br />
however, within the deadline for implementation <strong>of</strong><br />
the directive.<br />
In answer to his technical questions, I assure the<br />
noble Lord, Lord Razzall, that a letter has been placed<br />
in the Libraries <strong>of</strong> both Houses. The noble Lord, Lord
GC 285 Companies Act 2006 Regs 2009 [LORDS]<br />
Companies Act 2006 Regs 2009 GC 286<br />
[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN]<br />
Lyell, asked about the non-auditable parts <strong>of</strong> directors’<br />
remuneration—the parts that the auditors cannot reach.<br />
No doubt, we will provide a Written Answer.<br />
I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions<br />
to this debate and for their succinctness. The regulations<br />
make some modest changes to the law which are<br />
needed to complete our exercise <strong>of</strong> the member state<br />
option under the EU directive permitting publicly<br />
traded companies to prepare a separate corporate<br />
governance statement should they so wish. I hope<br />
that, on this basis, noble Lords will support the regulations.<br />
Motion agreed.<br />
The Deputy Chairman <strong>of</strong> Committees: That<br />
completes the business before the Grand Committee<br />
this afternoon. The Committee stands adjourned—<br />
remarkably early.<br />
Committee adjourned at 4.36 pm.
WS 69 Written Statements<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Written Statements<br />
WS 70<br />
Written Statements<br />
Wednesday 17 June 2009<br />
Coal and Carbon Capture and Storage<br />
Statement<br />
The Minister <strong>of</strong> State, Department <strong>of</strong> Energy and<br />
Climate Change (Lord Hunt <strong>of</strong> Kings Heath): My right<br />
honourable friend the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State for Energy<br />
and Climate Change (Ed Miliband) has made the<br />
following Written Ministerial Statement.<br />
I am today publishing a consultation on coal and<br />
carbon capture and storage entitled A Framework for<br />
the Development <strong>of</strong> Clean Coal.<br />
In April, the Budget announced financing for up to<br />
four CCS demonstration projects in the UK and, the<br />
following day, I outlined proposals for a new regulatory<br />
regime for new coal-fired power stations. Following<br />
the statutory strategic environmental assessment, this<br />
consultation document sets out the Government’s<br />
proposals in more detail.<br />
The aims <strong>of</strong> our proposals are to drive the<br />
decarbonisation <strong>of</strong> our energy supply, to safeguard<br />
our energy security and to get the best deal for consumers<br />
and businesses. The conditions on new coal proposed<br />
in this document are the most environmentally ambitious<br />
<strong>of</strong> any country in the world, requiring the demonstration<br />
<strong>of</strong> CCS on a substantial proportion <strong>of</strong> any new power<br />
station and the 100 per cent retr<strong>of</strong>it <strong>of</strong> CCS when it is<br />
proven.<br />
The document also sets out for consultation the<br />
process for funding and taking forward the demonstration<br />
projects which will enable us to maintain coal as part<br />
<strong>of</strong> our energy mix, supporting diversity and therefore<br />
security <strong>of</strong> supply.<br />
By acting early, we will ensure that jobs will also be<br />
created as Britain develops the expertise in what could<br />
be a major new industry, with CCS projects <strong>of</strong>fering<br />
the potential to form the hubs for clusters <strong>of</strong> low-carbon<br />
industries.<br />
By driving the development <strong>of</strong> CCS in this country,<br />
we are also, as a country, playing an essential role in<br />
tackling climate change. Coal is already widely used in<br />
developed and developing countries and its use is<br />
expected to grow further: 70 to 80 per cent <strong>of</strong> the<br />
predicted growth in emissions in the coming decades<br />
will come from developing countries unless we find a<br />
route to low-carbon growth<br />
Copies <strong>of</strong> the consultation have been placed in the<br />
Library and it is available from www.decc.gov.uk.<br />
EU: Telecoms Council<br />
Statement<br />
The Minister for Communications, Technology and<br />
Broadcasting (Lord Carter <strong>of</strong> Barnes): Further to the<br />
Written Statement concerning the positions that HMG<br />
intended to take at the Telecommunications Council,<br />
held on 11 June 2009, I am pleased to be able to <strong>report</strong><br />
back on the main conclusions and topics <strong>of</strong> discussion.<br />
The Telecommunications Council took place on<br />
11 June 2009 under the chair <strong>of</strong> the Czech presidency.<br />
Andy Lebrecht, the deputy permanent representative<br />
in Brussels, represented the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>. Much<br />
<strong>of</strong> the discussion was taken up by two main items, an<br />
informal and <strong>of</strong>f-the-agenda discourse on the review<br />
<strong>of</strong> the EU regulatory framework from electronic<br />
communications networks and services and a formal<br />
table-round on European network and information<br />
security policy.<br />
On the review after an introduction by the presidency<br />
(in which it regretted that it had been unable to preside<br />
over a final agreement), Commissioner Reding suggested<br />
that, while she understood the concerns <strong>of</strong> member<br />
states over the introduction <strong>of</strong> Amendment 138 (the<br />
clause that would make any internet disconnection<br />
subject to judicial review), she was more worried about<br />
a delay in the adoption <strong>of</strong> the framework that would<br />
occur if the council decided on a conciliation process.<br />
In response, the vast majority <strong>of</strong> member states said<br />
that they could not accept the EP amendment, some<br />
noting that it potentially interfered with national<br />
competencies. The UK noted that the amendment was<br />
unacceptable both in legal and policy terms, noting<br />
how it could constrain future decisions <strong>of</strong> the Government.<br />
In terms <strong>of</strong> a future conciliation process, the vast<br />
majority <strong>of</strong> member states (including the UK) indicated<br />
their wish to see discussion limited to Amendment 138<br />
with other (agreed) issues not being reopened. Most<br />
member states were also happy to leave the question as<br />
to whether council should reject the whole package or<br />
just the better regulation directive, which contains<br />
Amendment 138, to the presidency.<br />
The presidency concluded that, while a majority<br />
<strong>of</strong> member states wanted the framework adopted quickly,<br />
there was a strong majority that rejected Amendment 138<br />
and so the next step would be conciliation.<br />
On the formal discussion on European network<br />
and information security policy, Commissioner Reding<br />
introduced the Commission’s communication by noting<br />
that a breakdown in the critical telecoms infrastructure<br />
in the next five years was more likely now as a result <strong>of</strong><br />
security flaws. She asked member states to take the<br />
threat seriously and to reflect on the role that the<br />
European Network and Information Security Agency<br />
(ENISA) may need to take. She noted the Commission’s<br />
intention to publish proposals concerning the reform<br />
<strong>of</strong> the ENISA mandate by April 2010.<br />
Following this, during a wide-ranging exchange <strong>of</strong><br />
views, the majority <strong>of</strong> member states endorsed the<br />
need for a pan-EU (or even global) approach to<br />
information security and for enhanced co-operation<br />
between member states. All that spoke, with the exception<br />
<strong>of</strong> the UK and Hungary, also called for ENISA’s term<br />
and remit to be automatically extended. The UK,<br />
while also welcoming the Commission’s approach,<br />
noted that a future role for ENISA should be discussed<br />
within the context <strong>of</strong> an overall policy discussion on<br />
information and security and critical infrastructure<br />
protection.<br />
The council then moved on to three items under<br />
any other business, the first <strong>of</strong> which was on “Internet<br />
<strong>of</strong> Things—An Action Plan for Europe—Information<br />
from the Commission”, where the Commission noted
WS 71 Written Statements<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Written Statements<br />
WS 72<br />
that it would shortly be issuing a communication on<br />
the matter; a <strong>report</strong> from the presidency on the ministerial<br />
conference entitled Safer Internet for Children (Prague,<br />
20 April 2009), where the Commissioner thanked the<br />
presidency for an important conference; and “Internet<br />
Governance: The Next Steps”, where, Commissioner<br />
Reding noted the imminent publication <strong>of</strong> a<br />
communication addressing, among other issues, the<br />
future <strong>of</strong> ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned<br />
Names and Numbers).<br />
Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknotes<br />
Statement<br />
The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury<br />
(Lord Myners): My honourable friend the Exchequer<br />
Secretary to the Treasury (Kitty Ussher) has made the<br />
following Written Ministerial Statement.<br />
Today I am publishing a consultation document on<br />
secondary legislation made under Part 6 <strong>of</strong> the Banking<br />
Act 2009, regarding arrangements underpinning the<br />
commercial issuance <strong>of</strong> Scottish and Northern Ireland<br />
banknotes. Copies <strong>of</strong> the document, entitled The Banking<br />
Act 2009 (Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknotes)<br />
Regulations 2009: A Consultation, have been deposited<br />
in the Library <strong>of</strong> the House and the Vote Office and<br />
will be available on the HM Treasury website.<br />
Terrorism Act<br />
Statement<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Home<br />
Office (Lord West <strong>of</strong> Spithead): My right honourable<br />
friend the Secretary <strong>of</strong> State for the Home Department<br />
(Alan Johnson) has made the following Written Ministerial<br />
Statement.<br />
I am pleased to say that Lord Carlile <strong>of</strong> Berriew QC<br />
has completed his <strong>report</strong> on the operation <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 <strong>of</strong> the Terrorism Act 2006<br />
in 2008, which will be laid before the House today.<br />
I am grateful to Lord Carlile for his detailed <strong>report</strong><br />
and have considered his recommendations fully. Following<br />
consultation within my department and with other<br />
relevant departments and agencies, I am also pleased<br />
to lay before the House today my response to Lord<br />
Carlile’s recommendations.<br />
Copies <strong>of</strong> both Lord Carlile’s <strong>report</strong> and the response<br />
will be available in the Vote Office.<br />
UK Trade and Investment<br />
Statement<br />
The Minister for Trade and Investment (Lord Davies<br />
<strong>of</strong> Abersoch): With my right honourable friend, the<br />
Secretary <strong>of</strong> State for Foreign and Commonwealth<br />
Affairs, I am pleased to inform the House that in these<br />
difficult times for the global economy, the UK is<br />
maintaining its status as a world-class business destination.<br />
UK Trade and Investment has announced today, in<br />
its launch <strong>of</strong> UK Inward Investment Results 2008-09,<br />
that there were 1,744 direct investments in the UK by<br />
foreign-owned companies between 1 April 2008 and<br />
31 March 2009, as <strong>report</strong>ed by UK Trade and Investment<br />
and its partner agencies in Scotland, Wales, Northern<br />
Ireland and the English regional development agencies.<br />
This is an increase <strong>of</strong> 11 per cent on the year before<br />
and confirms that international business has continued<br />
to select the UK as the preferred investment location<br />
in Europe, second only globally to the <strong>United</strong> States<br />
<strong>of</strong> America. Through this foreign direct investment,<br />
78,540 new and safeguarded jobs have been delivered<br />
to the UK.<br />
At a time <strong>of</strong> global economic downturn, inward<br />
investment is a long-term decision for any company<br />
seeking to grow internationally. In the current climate,<br />
more investors are seeking to locate in the UK than<br />
anywhere else in Europe, helping to underpin the<br />
long-term economic prospects <strong>of</strong> the UK’s business<br />
environment. The number <strong>of</strong> new projects has increased<br />
by 26 per cent from 653 in 2007-08 to 827 in 2008-09<br />
and there were 460 expansions by existing investors,<br />
up by 5 per cent from 436 the previous year. In line<br />
with reduced global market liquidity, the number <strong>of</strong><br />
acquisitions, joint ventures and mergers taking place<br />
is down 6 per cent from 484 in 2007-08 to 457 in<br />
2008-09.<br />
Companies are seeking to invest internationally<br />
earlier in their life cycles than at any time previously to<br />
fund their growth. The UK has positioned itself as a<br />
springboard for global growth for companies seeking<br />
to grow both in the UK and internationally from a<br />
UK base. UK Trade and Investment is the government<br />
organisation leading support for such companies in<br />
the international business environment.<br />
I am arranging for a copy <strong>of</strong> the UK inward<br />
investment <strong>report</strong> 2008-09 to be placed in the Library<br />
<strong>of</strong> the House.
WA 207 Written Answers<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Written Answers<br />
WA 208<br />
Written Answers<br />
Wednesday 17 June 2009<br />
Afghanistan<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Morris <strong>of</strong> Aberavon<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the<br />
estimated cost <strong>of</strong> the war in Afghanistan to date.<br />
[HL4144]<br />
The Minister for International Defence and Security<br />
(Baroness Taylor <strong>of</strong> Bolton): MoD identifies the costs<br />
<strong>of</strong> operations in terms <strong>of</strong> the net additional costs it<br />
has incurred. The costs that would have been incurred<br />
regardless <strong>of</strong> the operation taking place, such as wages<br />
and salaries, are not included. Savings on activities<br />
that have not occurred because <strong>of</strong> the operation—such<br />
as training exercises—are taken into account in arriving<br />
at the net figures.<br />
The total annual costs <strong>of</strong> operations in Afghanistan<br />
since 2001 are set out below:<br />
2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09*<br />
Total to<br />
Date*<br />
Resource Costs<br />
187 236 36 58 148 560 1,071 1,656 3,952<br />
(£M)<br />
Capital Costs (£M) 34 75 10 9 51 178 433 967 1,757<br />
Total (£M) 221 311 46 67 199 738 1,504 2,623 5,709<br />
Note: The figures for 2008-09 are provisional outturn figures that are subject to final audit.<br />
Our forecast cost for operations for 2009-10 will be<br />
published in main estimates shortly.<br />
Benefits: Uprating<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Laird<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much<br />
extra monies in (a) social security benefits, and<br />
(b) public sector pensions, are forecast to be paid in<br />
the financial year 2009–10 to take account <strong>of</strong> the<br />
5 per cent and 6.3 per cent inflationary upratings<br />
determined by the prices indices <strong>of</strong> September 2008.<br />
[HL3627]<br />
The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury<br />
(Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Minister<br />
for Pensions and the Ageing Society provided an<br />
estimate <strong>of</strong> the costs <strong>of</strong> uprating DWP social security<br />
benefits at the appropriate rates in 2009-10 on 12 February<br />
2009 (House <strong>of</strong> Commons, Official Report, col. 1545).<br />
The Government do not hold detailed costings for<br />
indexation in respect <strong>of</strong> the full range <strong>of</strong> public sector<br />
pension schemes, but the overall cost <strong>of</strong> the 5 per cent<br />
uprating in 2009-10 has been estimated at around one<br />
and a quarter billion pounds.<br />
Community Empowerment, Housing and<br />
Economic Regeneration<br />
Questions<br />
Asked by Baroness Hamwee<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Baroness Andrews on 7 May<br />
(WA 134), what criteria were applied in deciding<br />
whether further changes in policy and practice discussed<br />
in the White Paper Communities in Control required<br />
legislation.<br />
[HL4049]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Communities and Local Government &<br />
Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong><br />
Luton): Government can promote changes in the policies<br />
and practices <strong>of</strong> external bodies through a variety <strong>of</strong><br />
means, such as legislation, the provision <strong>of</strong> funding<br />
information or guidance, by piloting initiatives, and by<br />
spreading best practice. The assessment <strong>of</strong> the best<br />
means in any circumstances is carried out on a case by<br />
case basis.<br />
Asked by Baroness Hamwee<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Baroness Andrews on 7 May<br />
(WA 134), on what grounds they have decided not<br />
to take forward “a number <strong>of</strong> more minor proposals,<br />
namely on remote attendance and voting by councillors,<br />
payments for councillors on loss <strong>of</strong> <strong>of</strong>fice, and<br />
incentives to vote in local elections”. [HL4050]<br />
Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong> Luton: Most <strong>of</strong> the proposals for<br />
change in the White Paper Communities in Control do<br />
not require legislation. For those where legislation is<br />
required, the Local Democracy, Economic Development<br />
and Construction Bill, which is currently before<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>, contains the major provisions, including a<br />
number added since introduction.<br />
Given the stage <strong>of</strong> the parliamentary cycle, we have<br />
decided to concentrate our energy on this, and not to<br />
publish a Draft Community Empowerment Bill, which<br />
would have contained only a few more minor proposals.<br />
Substantial progress has been made since Communities<br />
in Control was published. We published a “Communities<br />
Progress Report” on 1 June. Copies are in the Libraries<br />
<strong>of</strong> the House.<br />
Asked by Baroness Hamwee<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Baroness Andrews on 7 May<br />
(WA 134), what the remaining proposals are which<br />
require legislation, in addition to any legislation
WA 209 Written Answers<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Written Answers<br />
WA 210<br />
responding to the consultation on Changing Council<br />
Governance Arrangements and proposed reforms<br />
to parish governance.<br />
[HL4051]<br />
Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong> Luton: The Government have no<br />
current plans for legislation to implement proposals in<br />
the White Paper Communities in Control, beyond those<br />
provisions in the Local Democracy, Economic<br />
Development and Construction Bill, currently before<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>.<br />
Cycling<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Berkeley<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the<br />
Home Office is implementing the Government’s<br />
cycle-to-work scheme.<br />
[HL4113]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Home<br />
Office (Lord West <strong>of</strong> Spithead): The Home Office has<br />
included the implementation <strong>of</strong> the cycle-to-work scheme<br />
in its business plan for 2009-10 and is committed to its<br />
implementation.<br />
Equality and Human Rights Commission<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answers by Baroness Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon<br />
on 24 April (WA 419) and 4 June (WA 105), what<br />
performance assessment process is in place for<br />
reappointing members <strong>of</strong> the Equality and Human<br />
Rights Commission, including the criteria and evidence<br />
used in making the assessment.<br />
[HL4098]<br />
The Chancellor <strong>of</strong> the Duchy <strong>of</strong> Lancaster (Baroness<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon): As required by the Cabinet Office<br />
and the Office for the Commissioner for Public<br />
Appointments, commissioner performance appraisals<br />
have been carried out to provide the necessary evidence<br />
for considering any reappointments. The chair <strong>of</strong> the<br />
Equality and Human Rights Commission completed<br />
annual appraisals for the commissioners, assessing<br />
their performance against their own objectives and the<br />
key objectives <strong>of</strong> the commission.<br />
Food: Labelling<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Dykes<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in<br />
future consultations with food retailers and trade<br />
associations, they will propose inclusion <strong>of</strong> information<br />
additional to guideline daily amounts in front-<strong>of</strong>-pack<br />
nutritional labelling.<br />
[HL4032]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department <strong>of</strong> Health (Lord Darzi <strong>of</strong> Denham): Future<br />
consultations on front <strong>of</strong> pack (FoP) labelling will<br />
take account <strong>of</strong> the independent research published<br />
on 6 May 2009, which found that a FoP label that<br />
included the words “high, medium and low”, traffic<br />
light colour coding and percentage <strong>of</strong> guideline daily<br />
amount (per cent. GDA) was most effective in terms<br />
<strong>of</strong> consumer comprehension and enabling consumers<br />
to assess the healthiness <strong>of</strong> a product. The published<br />
<strong>report</strong> is available at www.food.gov.uk/news/newsarchive/<br />
2009/may/pmp.<br />
Foreign and Commonwealth Office and<br />
Department for International Development<br />
Question<br />
Asked by The Earl <strong>of</strong> Sandwich<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many<br />
Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department<br />
for International Development missions have been<br />
combined under the co-location programme; and<br />
when the benefits <strong>of</strong> co-location will be assessed.<br />
[HL4203]<br />
Lord Brett: Since the start <strong>of</strong> the Comprehensive<br />
Spending Round 07 period, Department for International<br />
Development (DfID) missions in Brasilia, Georgetown,<br />
Harare, Kampala and Lilongwe have co-located with<br />
Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) posts. The<br />
FCO is currently co-located with DfID in a total <strong>of</strong><br />
28 overseas sites, and are working with DfID on 10<br />
further co-location projects.<br />
Each co-location proposal is assessed on the basis<br />
<strong>of</strong> a cost benefits analysis carried out between DfID<br />
and the FCO. This considers both financial and non<br />
financial elements with a focus on achieving best value<br />
for the Government. Ongoing assessment <strong>of</strong> joint<br />
missions will take place as part <strong>of</strong> annual budget<br />
planning exercises.<br />
Gurkhas<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Alton <strong>of</strong> Liverpool<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many<br />
Gurkha ex-servicemen who retired prior to 1 July<br />
1997 are living (a) in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>, and<br />
(b) overseas.<br />
[HL4110]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Home<br />
Office (Lord West <strong>of</strong> Spithead): We believe that there<br />
are approximately 36,000 former Gurkhas who retired<br />
before 1 July 1997. Of these we estimate that approximately<br />
3,500 are already resident in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong> and<br />
the remaining 32,500 are living overseas.<br />
Health: Clinical Diagnoses<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Morris <strong>of</strong> Manchester<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Lord Darzi <strong>of</strong> Denham on 1<br />
June (WA 28), what they estimate would be the cost<br />
<strong>of</strong> obtaining centrally the information referred to<br />
in the Question.<br />
[HL4025]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department <strong>of</strong> Health (Lord Darzi <strong>of</strong> Denham): Clinical<br />
diagnosis is a matter for clinicians. We would not<br />
normally expect a dispute over diagnosis to arise.<br />
Should this happen we would expect roles and
WA 211 Written Answers<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Written Answers<br />
WA 212<br />
responsibilities to be clarified at a local level. This<br />
would not, therefore, be an appropriate issue for a<br />
national data collection and it is not possible to make<br />
an estimate <strong>of</strong> costs.<br />
Homeless People<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Ouseley<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they<br />
intend to respond to the increase in the number <strong>of</strong><br />
homeless persons in town and city centres; and<br />
what are the implications <strong>of</strong> that increase for mental<br />
health and voluntary social care services. [HL4118]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Communities and Local Government &<br />
Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong><br />
Luton): Over the three years until 2011, the Government<br />
are investing more than £220 million through local<br />
authorities and voluntary sector organisations to tackle<br />
homelessness. This includes a range <strong>of</strong> specialist provision<br />
for people sleeping rough. The £80 million Places <strong>of</strong><br />
Change programme is transforming hostels to help<br />
rough sleepers rebuild their lives.<br />
Our new strategy “No One Left Out” signals our<br />
intent to work with partners to end rough sleeping by<br />
2012. This builds on the considerable success over the<br />
past decade substantially to reduce rough sleeping.<br />
Homelessness: Rough Sleepers<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Roberts <strong>of</strong> Llandudno<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many<br />
rough sleepers were estimated to be in the Greater<br />
London area in (a) 2000, (b) 2005, (c) 2007, and<br />
(d) 2008; and how those figures were obtained.<br />
[HL4129]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Communities and Local Government &<br />
Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong><br />
Luton): Annual rough sleeping figures for London are<br />
based on local authority street counts and estimates<br />
where street counts did not take place. Number <strong>of</strong><br />
rough sleepers in London:<br />
2000—546;<br />
2005—221;<br />
2007—248; and<br />
2008—238.<br />
Houses <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>: Select Committees<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Lester <strong>of</strong> Herne Hill<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon) on 20 April (WA 346), on how<br />
many occasions and in what circumstances Ministers<br />
<strong>of</strong> the Government Equalities Office and its<br />
predecessors have refused to give evidence to<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>ary Select Committees during the past<br />
five years.<br />
[HL3139]<br />
The Chancellor <strong>of</strong> the Duchy <strong>of</strong> Lancaster (Baroness<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon): There have been no such occasions.<br />
Housing<br />
Questions<br />
Asked by Lord Burnett<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many<br />
new residential property starts have been made<br />
since 1999.<br />
[HL4253]<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many<br />
new residential property starts were made in the<br />
first quarter <strong>of</strong> 2009.<br />
[HL4254]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Communities and Local Government &<br />
Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong><br />
Luton): The latest statistics on <strong>house</strong> building starts<br />
and completions for England were published in the<br />
Communities and Local Government statistics release<br />
<strong>of</strong> 21 May 2009 and accompanying live tables. The<br />
web links are shown below:<br />
link to <strong>house</strong> building statistics release:<br />
www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/<br />
statistics/<strong>house</strong>buildingq12009.<br />
link to <strong>house</strong> building live tables:<br />
www.communities.gov.uk/housing/<br />
housingresearch/housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/<br />
<strong>house</strong>building/livetables/.<br />
Justice: Sharia Law<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
answer by Lord Bach on 4 June (Official Report,<br />
House <strong>of</strong> Lords, col. 296), whether they will take<br />
steps to ensure that resident Muslim men cannot<br />
bring their second, third or fourth wives, together<br />
with their children, to live in the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong><br />
and to draw benefits.<br />
[HL4145]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Home<br />
Office (Lord West <strong>of</strong> Spithead): It is government policy<br />
to prevent the formation <strong>of</strong> polygamous <strong>house</strong>holds<br />
in this country. Entry clearance or leave to enter or<br />
remain is refused if the applicant’s spouse has another<br />
spouse living who is, or at any time since their marriage<br />
has been, in the UK, or who has been granted a<br />
certificate <strong>of</strong> entitlement in respect <strong>of</strong> right <strong>of</strong> abode<br />
under Section 2(1)(a) <strong>of</strong> the Immigration Act 1988, or<br />
who has been granted entry clearance to enter the UK<br />
on the basis <strong>of</strong> their marriage.<br />
There are certain exceptions to this general restriction:<br />
a spouse who seeks leave to entry or remain if he/she<br />
has been in the UK before one August 1988, having<br />
been admitted on the basis <strong>of</strong> his/her marriage; or, if<br />
he/she has, since his/her marriage, been in the UK at<br />
any time when there was no such other spouse living.
WA 213 Written Answers<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Written Answers<br />
WA 214<br />
At the present time we see no firm evidence that<br />
further legislation and/or other restrictions, on top <strong>of</strong><br />
the existing tight restrictions, are necessary.<br />
Latvia and Republic <strong>of</strong> Ireland<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Kilclooney<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether<br />
economic support to Latvia and the Republic <strong>of</strong><br />
Ireland will be provided only by nations in the<br />
eurozone or by the whole <strong>of</strong> the European Union;<br />
and what are the implications <strong>of</strong> such support<br />
coming from the <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong>. [HL4148]<br />
The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury<br />
(Lord Myners): Latvia secured agreement to a ¤7.5 billion<br />
financial support package in December 2008, including<br />
¤3.1 billion from the European Union’s medium-term<br />
balance <strong>of</strong> payments facility and ¤1.7 billion from the<br />
International Monetary Fund. The UK did not make<br />
a bilateral contribution.<br />
The Government are not aware <strong>of</strong> any request from<br />
Ireland for international economic support.<br />
Legal Aid<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Laird<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much<br />
funding was provided as legal aid in Northern<br />
Ireland in each <strong>of</strong> the past 10 years. [HL4048]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Ministry<br />
<strong>of</strong> Justice (Lord Bach): The funding provided to the<br />
Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission for legal<br />
aid in Northern Ireland in each <strong>of</strong> the past 10 years is<br />
as follows;<br />
Financial Year Legal Aid Fund £m<br />
99-00 34.5<br />
00-01 37.5<br />
01-02 41.5<br />
02-03 45.0<br />
03-04 49.9<br />
04-05 58.6<br />
05-06 57.2<br />
06-07 68.5<br />
07-08 73.7<br />
08-09 80.0<br />
NHS: Ageism<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Baroness Greengross<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps<br />
they are taking to tackle ageism in the National<br />
Health Service in the light <strong>of</strong> the survey <strong>of</strong> British<br />
Geriatrics Society members <strong>report</strong>ed by Help the<br />
Aged in January 2009.<br />
[HL4169]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department <strong>of</strong> Health (Lord Darzi <strong>of</strong> Denham): The<br />
Government are strongly committed to ending age<br />
discrimination. The National Health Service (NHS)<br />
Constitution, published in January 2009, states that<br />
“the NHS provides a comprehensive service, available<br />
to all irrespective <strong>of</strong> gender, race, disability, age, sexual<br />
orientation, religion or belief” and sets out patients’<br />
right not to be unlawfully discriminated against in the<br />
provision <strong>of</strong> NHS services, including on grounds <strong>of</strong><br />
age once the relevant provisions <strong>of</strong> the Equality Bill<br />
are brought into force for the health sector. The Bill,<br />
currently before <strong>Parliament</strong>, includes provisions to<br />
prohibit age discrimination in the provision <strong>of</strong> services<br />
and the exercise <strong>of</strong> public functions. This will apply to<br />
health and social care.<br />
NHS pr<strong>of</strong>essionals are dedicated to <strong>of</strong>fering good<br />
care to all patients irrespective <strong>of</strong> age, but we recognise<br />
that more needs to be done to improve services for all<br />
age groups and tackle age discrimination where it<br />
exists.<br />
The Secretary <strong>of</strong> State for Health has initiated a<br />
national review <strong>of</strong> age discrimination led from the<br />
south-west region by Sir Ian Carruthers, chief executive<br />
<strong>of</strong> the South West Strategic Health Authority, and Jan<br />
Ormondroyd, chief executive <strong>of</strong> Bristol City Council.<br />
The review is looking at the key actions health and<br />
adult social care should take to prepare for implementation<br />
<strong>of</strong> the ban on age discrimination. More widely, the<br />
department is considering how health and social care<br />
organisations can ensure that people receive high quality<br />
services, whatever their age. The review will make its<br />
recommendations in a published <strong>report</strong> in October<br />
2009.<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>s: Members’ Costs<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Pearson <strong>of</strong> Rannoch<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the<br />
average annual cost <strong>of</strong> maintaining a member <strong>of</strong><br />
(a) the House <strong>of</strong> Lords; (b) the House <strong>of</strong> Commons;<br />
and (c) the European <strong>Parliament</strong> including salaries,<br />
pensions, attendance allowances, travelling allowances<br />
and <strong>of</strong>fice expenses for the most recent year for<br />
which figures are available.<br />
[HL3826]<br />
The Chancellor <strong>of</strong> the Duchy <strong>of</strong> Lancaster (Baroness<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon): I refer the noble Lord to the<br />
Answer given to Baroness Seccombe on 26 November<br />
2008 (Official Report, col. WA 336-7).<br />
Poland<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Ouseley<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they<br />
will make representations to the Government <strong>of</strong><br />
Poland about the safety <strong>of</strong> black British citizens<br />
visiting Poland.<br />
[HL4233]<br />
Lord Brett: We are not aware <strong>of</strong> any <strong>report</strong>s in the<br />
Polish press <strong>of</strong> abuse, harassment or threatening behaviour<br />
being directed towards black British citizens in Poland.<br />
We do not, therefore, have any plans to make<br />
representations to the Polish Government about the<br />
safety <strong>of</strong> black British citizens in Poland.
WA 215 Written Answers<br />
[17 JUNE 2009]<br />
Written Answers<br />
WA 216<br />
Population Statistics<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Taylor <strong>of</strong> Holbeach<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they<br />
supply the <strong>United</strong> States Census Bureau with <strong>United</strong><br />
<strong>Kingdom</strong> population statistics; and, if so, in what<br />
form and how frequently.<br />
[HL4053]<br />
Baroness Crawley: The information requested falls<br />
within the responsibility <strong>of</strong> the UK Statistics Authority.<br />
I have asked the authority to reply<br />
Letter from Karen Dunnell, National Statistician, to<br />
Lord Taylor, dated June 2009.<br />
As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply<br />
to your Question asking whether Her Majesty’s<br />
Government supply the <strong>United</strong> States Census Bureau<br />
with <strong>United</strong> <strong>Kingdom</strong> population statistics; and, if so,<br />
in what form and how frequently. (HL4053)<br />
Population statistics are published on the ONS<br />
website where they are available publicly for all users<br />
at www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=<br />
601&More=N.<br />
No other Census or other population statistics are<br />
supplied to the <strong>United</strong> States Census Bureau.<br />
Public Bodies<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Laird<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recourse<br />
they have if a body set up by an Act <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong><br />
exceeds its brief.<br />
[HL3544]<br />
The Chancellor <strong>of</strong> the Duchy <strong>of</strong> Lancaster (Baroness<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon): There are a wide range <strong>of</strong> public<br />
bodies set up by Acts <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>. Any concerns<br />
about the actions or performance <strong>of</strong> a particular<br />
public body should be raised with the chairman <strong>of</strong> the<br />
body concerned and/or the relevant sponsor department.<br />
Public Sector: Contracts<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Kirkwood <strong>of</strong> Kirkhope<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures<br />
are in place in the process for tendering public<br />
sector contracts to protect local specialist providers<br />
<strong>of</strong> services from exploitation by prime contractors.<br />
[HL4103]<br />
The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury<br />
(Lord Myners): The Office <strong>of</strong> Government Commerce<br />
has issued guidance which encourages departments to<br />
seek effective management <strong>of</strong> supply chains by their<br />
prime contractors.<br />
This guidance will be reviewed and updated as part<br />
<strong>of</strong> a programme <strong>of</strong> work to implement the<br />
recommendations <strong>of</strong> the Glover Advisory Committee,<br />
which published its <strong>report</strong> Accelerating the SME economic<br />
engine; through transparent, simple and strategic<br />
procurement in November 2008. That work includes a<br />
project to help ensure small businesses and other firms<br />
acting as sub-contractors obtain contract conditions,<br />
for example, promptness <strong>of</strong> payment, that are comparable<br />
to those applied to the prime contractor.<br />
Within central government it is mandatory for major<br />
new construction projects to adopt the principles set<br />
out in OGC’s Guide to Best Fair Payment practices.<br />
That requires departments to adopt the principles <strong>of</strong><br />
OGC’s Fair Payment Charter for their construction<br />
supply chains.<br />
Questions for Written Answer: Websites<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Laird<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they<br />
refer to websites to answer parliamentary questions<br />
instead <strong>of</strong> supplying the information, and whether<br />
they will ensure that in future answers are provided<br />
in full in the Official Report.<br />
[HL4003]<br />
The Chancellor <strong>of</strong> the Duchy <strong>of</strong> Lancaster (Baroness<br />
Royall <strong>of</strong> Blaisdon): The presumption should be that,<br />
unless it is <strong>of</strong> such size and complexity that it would<br />
not be practicable to do so or would involve<br />
disproportionate cost, requested information which is<br />
readily available should be provided in the relevant<br />
Written Answer itself, in addition to referring the<br />
Member to the published sources. I will be reminding<br />
departments <strong>of</strong> the need to do so.<br />
Shipping: Ferry Operators<br />
Questions<br />
Asked by Lord Laird<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 9 June (WA 147-8),<br />
whether the agency issued a temporary passengercarrying<br />
certificate on or about 12 September 2008<br />
for MV “CANNA”.<br />
[HL4221]<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 9 June (WA 147-8),<br />
whether a temporary passenger-carrying certificate<br />
was requested from the agency on or about 5 September<br />
2008 for MV “CANNA”. [HL4223]<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the<br />
Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 9 June (WA 147-8),<br />
what was meant by “had the MCA issued the<br />
correct paperwork, the passenger certificate would<br />
have been valid for a full year through to 18 September<br />
2008”. [HL4226]<br />
The Secretary <strong>of</strong> State for Transport (Lord Adonis):<br />
The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) issued<br />
a short-term passenger certificate, valid for one month,<br />
for the MV “CANNA”on 12 September 2008, following<br />
an in water survey. No request was made to the MCA<br />
for a temporary passenger-carrying certificate in<br />
September 2008.<br />
An error occurred in the re-issue <strong>of</strong> passenger<br />
certification in July 2008 to take account <strong>of</strong> a change<br />
<strong>of</strong> operator to the current operator. This certification<br />
should have reflected previous changes, unrelated to<br />
the current operator, which would have confirmed<br />
that the certification was valid until 18 September<br />
2008, rather than 31 August 2008.<br />
On 5 September 2008 the operators <strong>of</strong> the<br />
MV “CANNA” informed the MCA that the vessel<br />
could not be surveyed out <strong>of</strong> water before 18 September
WA 217 Written Answers<br />
[LORDS]<br />
Written Answers<br />
WA 218<br />
2008, the date that the operators believed their survey<br />
window expired based on the assumption that the<br />
certificate would be valid for 12 months from the date<br />
<strong>of</strong> the last survey. It was during the request for the out<br />
<strong>of</strong> water survey that the basis for confusion was revealed.<br />
The surveys on this vessel were current even if the<br />
paperwork did not always reflect this.<br />
Following the out <strong>of</strong> water survey, a new five-year<br />
passenger certificate was issued on the 5 October<br />
2008.<br />
Smoking<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Laird<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much<br />
they raised in tobacco-related taxes in 2006–07.<br />
[HL4258]<br />
The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury<br />
(Lord Myners): Total tobacco duty received by the<br />
Exchequer in 2006-07 was £8,149 million and is published<br />
in the National Statistics Tobacco bulletin available at<br />
www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bulltobacco.<br />
Statutory Instruments<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Naseby<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many<br />
statutory instruments were laid in each <strong>of</strong> the Sessions<br />
1996–97; 1997–98; 2001–02; 2002–03; 2006–07; and<br />
2007–08. [HL4177]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State, Ministry<br />
<strong>of</strong> Justice (Lord Bach): The number <strong>of</strong> statutory<br />
instruments laid in each <strong>of</strong> the specified Sessions was<br />
a follows:<br />
Session<br />
Number <strong>of</strong> instruments<br />
1996-97 1054<br />
1997-98 1816<br />
2001-02 1730<br />
2002-03 1391<br />
2006-07 1358<br />
2007-08 1306<br />
Territorial Army<br />
Question<br />
Asked by Lord Astor <strong>of</strong> Hever<br />
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether<br />
Territorial Army soldiers who are currently unemployed<br />
are able to claim jobseeker’s allowance whilst attending<br />
to their Territorial Army duties.<br />
[HL4092]<br />
The <strong>Parliament</strong>ary Under-Secretary <strong>of</strong> State,<br />
Department for Communities and Local Government &<br />
Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie <strong>of</strong><br />
Luton): Unemployed people who are Territorial Army<br />
soldiers can claim jobseeker’s allowance provided they<br />
are available and actively seeking work. Most TA units<br />
have a minimum commitment to train for around<br />
three hours per week, one weekend per month and to<br />
participate in an annual two week camp for basic<br />
training, which may take place in the UK or abroad.<br />
The only time their TA activity would impact on<br />
JSA entitlement is during the annual two week training<br />
period per year. Normally when a TA solider attends<br />
their annual training they tend to close their claim to<br />
JSA, as the full time nature <strong>of</strong> the training means they<br />
cannot be available for or actively seeking work during<br />
this period.
Wednesday 17 June 2009<br />
ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO<br />
WRITTEN STATEMENTS<br />
Col. No.<br />
Coal and Carbon Capture and Storage............................. 69<br />
EU: Telecoms Council ....................................................... 69<br />
Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknotes ......................... 71<br />
Col. No.<br />
Terrorism Act .................................................................... 71<br />
UK Trade and Investment ................................................. 72<br />
Wednesday 17 June 2009<br />
ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS<br />
Col. No.<br />
Afghanistan..................................................................... 207<br />
Benefits: Uprating............................................................ 207<br />
Community Empowerment, Housing and Economic<br />
Regeneration................................................................ 207<br />
Cycling............................................................................. 209<br />
Equality and Human Rights Commission ....................... 209<br />
Food: Labelling................................................................ 209<br />
Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for<br />
International Development.......................................... 210<br />
Gurkhas........................................................................... 210<br />
Health: Clinical Diagnoses............................................... 210<br />
Homeless People.............................................................. 211<br />
Homelessness: Rough Sleepers......................................... 211<br />
Houses <strong>of</strong> <strong>Parliament</strong>: Select Committees ....................... 211<br />
Housing ........................................................................... 212<br />
Col. No.<br />
Justice: Sharia Law .......................................................... 212<br />
Latvia and Republic <strong>of</strong> Ireland........................................ 213<br />
Legal Aid......................................................................... 213<br />
NHS: Ageism................................................................... 213<br />
<strong>Parliament</strong>s: Members’ Costs .......................................... 214<br />
Poland ............................................................................. 214<br />
Population Statistics ........................................................ 215<br />
Public Bodies ................................................................... 215<br />
Public Sector: Contracts .................................................. 215<br />
Questions for Written Answer: Websites .......................... 216<br />
Shipping: Ferry Operators ............................................... 216<br />
Smoking .......................................................................... 217<br />
Statutory Instruments...................................................... 217<br />
Territorial Army .............................................................. 218<br />
NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS<br />
Col. No.<br />
[HL3139] ......................................................................... 212<br />
[HL3544] ......................................................................... 215<br />
[HL3627] ......................................................................... 207<br />
[HL3826] ......................................................................... 214<br />
[HL4003] ......................................................................... 216<br />
[HL4025] ......................................................................... 210<br />
[HL4032] ......................................................................... 209<br />
[HL4048] ......................................................................... 213<br />
[HL4049] ......................................................................... 207<br />
Col. No.<br />
[HL4050] ......................................................................... 208<br />
[HL4051] ......................................................................... 209<br />
[HL4053] ......................................................................... 215<br />
[HL4092] ......................................................................... 218<br />
[HL4098] ......................................................................... 209<br />
[HL4103] ......................................................................... 215<br />
[HL4110] ......................................................................... 210<br />
[HL4113] ......................................................................... 209<br />
[HL4118] ......................................................................... 211
Col. No.<br />
[HL4129] ......................................................................... 211<br />
[HL4144] ......................................................................... 207<br />
[HL4145] ......................................................................... 212<br />
[HL4148] ......................................................................... 213<br />
[HL4169] ......................................................................... 213<br />
[HL4177] ......................................................................... 217<br />
[HL4203] ......................................................................... 210<br />
Col. No.<br />
[HL4221] ......................................................................... 216<br />
[HL4223] ......................................................................... 216<br />
[HL4226] ......................................................................... 216<br />
[HL4233] ......................................................................... 214<br />
[HL4253] ......................................................................... 212<br />
[HL4254] ......................................................................... 212<br />
[HL4258] ......................................................................... 217
Volume 711<br />
Wednesday<br />
No. 91 17 June 2009<br />
CONTENTS<br />
Wednesday 17 June 2009<br />
Questions<br />
Police: Funding.............................................................................................................................................................. 1057<br />
Sri Lanka ....................................................................................................................................................................... 1059<br />
Banks: Lending.............................................................................................................................................................. 1061<br />
Prisoners: Voting ........................................................................................................................................................... 1065<br />
Policing and Crime Bill<br />
Order <strong>of</strong> Consideration Motion ................................................................................................................................... 1067<br />
Bank <strong>of</strong> England (Amendment) Bill [HL]<br />
Third Reading ................................................................................................................................................................ 1067<br />
Saving Gateway Accounts Bill<br />
Third Reading ................................................................................................................................................................ 1067<br />
Political Parties and Elections Bill<br />
Report (2nd Day) ......................................................................................................................................................... 1067<br />
Organophosphates<br />
Question for Short Debate............................................................................................................................................ 1126<br />
Political Parties and Elections Bill<br />
Report (2nd Day) (Continued)................................................................................................................................... 1140<br />
Grand Committee<br />
Companies Act 2006 (Part 35) (Consequential Amendments, Transitional Provisions and Savings)<br />
Order 2009 ................................................................................................................................................................ GC 271<br />
Registrar <strong>of</strong> Companies and Applications for Striking Off Regulations 2009 ........................................................ GC 276<br />
Overseas Companies Regulations 2009 ....................................................................................................................... GC 276<br />
Limited Liability Partnerships (Application <strong>of</strong> Companies Act 2006) Regulations 2009....................................... GC 279<br />
Companies Act 2006 (Accounts, Reports and Audit) Regulations 2009<br />
Debated...................................................................................................................................................................... GC 282<br />
Written Statements......................................................................................................................................................... WS 69<br />
Written Answers............................................................................................................................................................ WA 207